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06:56 < sn0wmonster> (except maybe for zcash)
06:57 < sn0wmonster> could anyone clue me into the differences between projects like DASH and ZCASH in terms of their anonymity models, and if bitcoin can ever adopt the same approach or if doing so would cause too much burden to bitcoin as it stands?
06:58 < sn0wmonster> i'd really like to understand why people need to switch to an alt-coin for something, instead of being able to build on top of bitcoin.
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07:39 < andytoshi> sn0wmonster: DASH can be built on top of bitcoin, it's basically just coinjoin with "masternodes" acting as servers and some rule about nodes needing to bond coins to be a masternode
07:40 < andytoshi> zcash uses some new cryptography which involves a trusted setup, novel cryptographic assumptions, and is quite slow; in its current state it definitely could not be put into bitcoin, but on the other hand it is much more powerful than what can be done on bitcoin. it hides which outputs are being spent in every transaction, as well as the amounts of all outputs
07:42 < sn0wmonster> right, zero-knowledge proofs! i was reading about that a few years back
07:43 < sn0wmonster> as i understand it, zcash has 2 modes though, one is in the clear and the other is the "private" mode. could such a thing not be implemented in bitcoin directly and have most people just opt for the clear mode by default?
07:46 < kanzure> he just answered that question though
07:47 < andytoshi> sn0wmonster: no, the trusted setup is "trusted to not silently inflate the currency", it would affect everybody, even those not using the weird transactions
07:50 < sn0wmonster> oh i see. when you say trusted setup, do you mean a setup in which people don't know what's going on for sure and just trust some devs to not be lying?
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07:57 < andytoshi> well they know "what's going on" but the devs have some secret keys that they can use to inflate, that they're supposed to delete (they're not good for anything else) but it's impossible to verify deletion
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08:14 < sn0wmonster> that seems like a pretty broken security model to me
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08:15 < sn0wmonster> interjecting human fallibility and greed into what would otherwise be mathematically sound
08:15 < bsm1175321> https://z.cash/blog/the-design-of-the-ceremony.html
08:15 < sn0wmonster> ty
08:16 < sn0wmonster> i guess it's similar in bitcoin though, as all the devs could collude theoretically and do similar things,
08:16 < kanzure> there is no trusted setup in bitcoin
08:16 < sn0wmonster> but that the potential blowback would be massive and hence they wouldn't
08:16 < kanzure> no... it's rather that there is literally no trusted setup in bitcoin.
08:16 < instagibbs> its only possible if people arent validating the chain
08:16 < instagibbs> which is not the security model of Bitcoin
08:17 < sn0wmonster> kanzure: that is my understanding as well, that there is no trusted technical setup. i was speaking of the political setup.
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08:19 < sn0wmonster> oh my goodness.
08:19 < sn0wmonster> "Bitcoin was able to detect this problem because it publicly exposes all transactions. Zcash won't have that ability. In fact, any system which shields the amounts of transactions risks losing the ability to detect such counterfeiting."
08:19 < sn0wmonster> That doesn't sound good at all
08:20 < waxwing> it's an interesting tradeoff, but the tradeoff we want is something like "assuming DL/ECDL is hard, there is no inflation backdoor", not "assuming NSA can't backdoor these laptops.." :)
08:22 < waxwing> but that observation maybe is less interesting than the one in your quote, that any amount-confidential system has to represent a downgrade in certainty by design, at least during the confidentiality periods (there can be regular "reveals" in some systems theoretically)
08:23 < sn0wmonster> i guess in that case only time will tell. i do appreciate them being honest and clear about the potential issues though.
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10:33 < AusteritySucks>  new
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12:49 < kanzure> how about: reserve some space in each block where you subsidize low-fee transactions, also you would soft-fork in a requirement for and a method for CPU/GPU low hashrate miners to show that they have mined valid weak blocks with a certain nonce included. this way, instead of having transaction fees pay for the inclusion of transactios into blocks, it would be mining PoW effort that gets subsidized.
12:50 < kanzure> i was actually thinking of this in the case of subsidizing lightning channel opens (or closures?) in an extension block that adds sub-satoshi payment amounts (so that GPU miners could "cash out" and use lightning network stuff, while still having consensus-enforced lightinng transactions)
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12:51 < kanzure> the downside is that you don't get to obtain sub-satoshi BTC amounts from your very weak block mining as a CPU miner :(
12:52 < kanzure> it just gets your transaction included into the blockchain
13:05 < bsm1175321> http://www.deadalnix.me/2016/11/06/using-merklix-tree-to-shard-block-validation/
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13:24 < kanzure> bsm1175321: see also http://www.deadalnix.me/2016/09/29/using-merklix-tree-to-checkpoint-an-utxo-set/ and http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2016-10-31.log and https://github.com/ignopeverell/grin/issues/10
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13:24 < kanzure> actually a better link would be https://github.com/ignopeverell/grin/pull/12
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13:26 < bsm1175321> Yeah I just noticed he had a new blog on the topic, already read his older ones ;-)
13:32 < kanzure> re: my above mumblings about GPU mining and payouts,   in the soft-fork you would also add a rule that a miner can choose to make a anyonecanspend transaction with some number of satoshi BTC (perhaps even above today's dust limit?) , and hten make the anyonecanspend transaction (in this case) only spendable by transactions that aggregate weak 'block' PoW proofs.   hence oyu would have a way for people to accumulate PoW and then cash ...
13:32 < kanzure> ... out. in the mean time, they can also spend their PoWs in the subsidized portion of the block even with no transaction fee (or a very tiny transaction fee).   miners would choose to make these satoshi coins available because it's in their best interest to subsidize sub-satoshi activity and CPU mining.
13:33 < kanzure> would need a PoW aggregation scheme prolly..
13:35 < kanzure> downsides: miners would probably have to check the validity of all the PoW proofs and the weak blocks, even if the contents of the weak blocks aren't included in the chain. there's probably no way around "do lots of validation work" requirement here. however you could limit the size of the weak blocks that the cpu miners would be mining, thus limiting the additional validation work.
13:36 < bsm1175321> Hey...why not use a merklix/MMR like scheme for aggregating PoW?  IOW a tree data structure committed in the block of all ancestor PoW's, hashed alongside the summed work?  Each mined block would include the Merkle path updating the root PoW commitment...
13:36 < kanzure> why ancestor PoWs?
13:37 < kanzure> do you mean in-block sub PoWs?
13:37 < bsm1175321> You asked about aggregating PoW...
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13:37 < bsm1175321> It would be a way for light clients to see the whole work, and validate backwards from the chain tip...
13:39 < kanzure> bsm1175321: right, my statement about aggregating PoW was in the context of a soft-fork where miners would include transactions (without fees) in a special area of the block reserved for the magic i described above (where transactions would instead of fee have (aggregated?) PoWs).
13:40 < kanzure> whereas i'm fairly certain you are speaking about aggregating PoW in the context of dag history
13:41 < bsm1175321> No...was just thinking of being able to sum PoW's and have a compact proof thereof, without having the property that work can be added to itself.
13:43 < kanzure> a compact proof of total work is somehow not the same as adding work to itself?
13:44 < bsm1175321> It's not the same.  If I take a PoW hash and can add it to itself, I've just created a "proof" that I did twice as much work.
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--- Log closed Sat Nov 12 00:00:36 2016