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07:09 < stevenroose> Thought: delayed / smoothed / shared block rewards can be one of the most important improvements to protect users against bad behavior from miners
07:10 < stevenroose> The issue with miners is that they can include transactions in a block that they did not broadcast prior to the block. So they can artificially fill any fraction of their blocks (say 50%) with transactions they made up that pay a high tx fee.
07:10 < stevenroose> For the outside world (except maybe some people that closely watch tx broadcasts) it will seem that this is the reasonable price for txs
07:11 < stevenroose> I would not surprise me of miners are already doing this at substantially lower levels in order not to be suspicious
07:11 < stevenroose> If f.e. the reward for a block goes to the miner of the next block, miners cannot insert transactions with arbitrary fees
07:12 < stevenroose> While still miners would have an incentive to maximise total tx fees because they could just as well be the miner of the next block
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08:18 < instagibbs> stevenroose, problem with smoothing is that out of band fees avoid this. And AFAIK it's already a very common practice.
08:19 < stevenroose> instagibbs, can you explain that?
08:19 < stevenroose> out of band just means off chain, right?
08:19 < instagibbs> stevenroose, and to be clear, Core doesn't estimate fees from blocks, it estimates from things it sees in mempool
08:19 < instagibbs> yes
08:19 < instagibbs> they submit a tx with low/no fee directly to miner and pay them however
08:20 < stevenroose> aaah
08:20 < instagibbs> they get QoS, and can "bump fee" arbitrarily
08:20 < stevenroose> is that a common practice?
08:20 < stevenroose> I did not know
08:20 < instagibbs> I believe some pools publicly advertise such a service already.
08:21 < stevenroose> Well common practice or not, it's not a very fair process and is not really within the philosophy of bitcoin
08:21 < stevenroose> And now that I think about it, it doesnt interfere with fee smoothing
08:22 < instagibbs> If there's no stated fee, there is nothing to smooth
08:22 < stevenroose> the miner of the current block can still charge out of band for including a transaction, it would only be bad for other miners
08:22 < stevenroose> with smoothing I meant like pool up fees from the last X blocks and pay 1/X of that amount to a new miner
08:24 < stevenroose> a sort of moving average payout with pool = pool + newBlock.fee - blockOfAgeX.fee and give the miner pool/X
08:24 < stevenroose> that formula is wrong, but you get the concept :p
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08:30 < stevenroose> I'm thinking what makes the most sense for a smoothing algo to do with the current block. Include it somehow or only decide on past fees.
08:31 < stevenroose> When including the current block let's say in an X-block average or whatever, they can still fill blocks with txs with fees equal to the average fee over these X blocks
08:32 < stevenroose> If you don't include it, the worse they can do is filling blocks with zero-fee txs and accepting fee's out of band or whatever, but 1. that can happen anyways and 2. not including any fees lowers their income in the long run since they have a likelyhood of findng anothe block in the next X blocks
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12:45 < jtimon> yeah, then miners will prefer out-of-band fees since they don't have to share/average those
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14:57 < mryandao> has this issue been considered from the perspective of auction theory. It sounds asif its not necessarily in the interest of miners to accept private unbroadcasted transactions as it may not necessarily pay the "best" fees
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19:15 < jl2012> luke-jr: I think it's better the make nNonceC2 an uint32_t, allow mining with 30 bits, and have consensus rules to fix the top bits as 01
19:15 < jl2012> so we don't need to serialize a int24, and also provide 6 more bits for mining
19:17 < luke-jr> why fix them at all?
19:17 < luke-jr> why not just 32-bit?
19:17 < jl2012> BIP65 (ISM)
19:18 < luke-jr> I don't see how it's applicable
19:18 < jl2012> nNonceC2 is the original nVersion
19:18 < jl2012> nVersion has to be >= 4
19:19 < luke-jr> for the block header, not the transaction version?
19:19 < luke-jr> oh, that's what C2 is part of
19:19 < luke-jr> in that case, it's stepping into evil-fork territory I think
19:20 < jl2012> what's the difference?
19:20 < jl2012> i'm talking about your MMHF BIP
19:20 < luke-jr> a fixed 8 bits leaves plenty of room for a SHF-rejecting chain to use
19:21 < luke-jr> the difference between an EF and SHF, is that the SHF accomidates rejection
19:23 < luke-jr> the SHF can be trivially and safely rejected, thus not being suceptible to inappropriate coercion
19:23 < jl2012> i think that's easy. If the SHF uses 01 as top bits, a rejection fork could use 001
19:23 < jl2012> there are a least 20 something combinations
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19:33 < jl2012> luke-jr: in header B, there is "1 byte: length of preceding data (for midstate compression)". How is it exactly used?
19:36 < luke-jr> jl2012: it may not be useful in practice, but hypothetically you could replace any sequence of 64 bytes from the start with a SHA2 midstate
19:36 < luke-jr> committing to the length at the end allows the midstate-user to determine how far back it began
19:40 < jl2012> so based on your code, I have made a version with basic mining and p2p support. And it also passes some rpc tests like segwit.py that do not create blocks by python
19:42 < jl2012> luke-jr: so do you think it's ok to fix only the top-2 bits for NonceC2? And for C3, I think it's better to allow C3 smaller than 4 bytes, and pad it to 4 bytes if it is small
19:43 < luke-jr> No, I don't think it's okay.
19:43 < luke-jr> What is the value in allowing smaller C3?
19:43 < jl2012> so we don't need to throw an exception when it's smaller than that
19:44 < luke-jr> hmm
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--- Log closed Tue Nov 29 00:00:24 2016