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10:19 < bsm117532> I've been thinking of a possible BIP: "Commitment Requests".
10:20 < bsm117532> The idea would be to create an optional, p2p layer set of messages for light clients to request certain kinds of commitments about the state of the blockchain.
10:20 < bsm117532> Bitcoind nodes wishing to service light clients could calculate these commitments, once per block, rather than once per peer or once per SPV client.
10:21 < bsm117532> Light clients could then request Merkle proofs relative to these commitments for the data they're interested in.
10:22 < bsm117532> By making a set of optional p2p messages, we could play with different kinds of commitments, as a stepping stone to including some of them in the block itself.
10:23 < bsm117532> As long as the commitments are not in the block, light clients can't know whether the full nodes servicing them have calculated the commitments correctly, but this can be somewhat mitigated by asking multiple nodes and providing public auditing of these commitments.
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10:27 < bsm117532> For instance, BIP37 style matching of all data elements could be done by creating a Merklix/MMR commitment to all data in each block.
10:27 < kanzure> what about censorship of these proofs
10:27 < bsm117532> Full nodes could then provide a proof of presence of proof of absence.
10:27 -!- qpm [~qpm@unaffiliated/midnightmagic/bot/qpm] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
10:28 < bsm117532> kanzure: Censorship resistance will have to come by making these commitments a consensus rule.
10:28 < kanzure> (block-embedded stuff can get censord)
10:28 < kanzure> ok.
10:28 < kanzure> then why make them node-calculated instead of miner-calculated? how would you tell the difference anyway
10:28 < bsm117532> But, as a stepping stone, I think p2p commitment requests would be a good way to explore the possibilities for improving light client security.
10:29 < bsm117532> If they're in the block (header) they would be miner calculated.
10:29 < kanzure> they can also be in the transaction list, though, even as a consensus rule
10:29 < bsm117532> If they're not in the block, this is just a service some bitcoin nodes want to provide for light clients.
10:30 < bsm117532> Yes.  I don't really care how they're put into the block eventually, as long as light clients can easily access them.
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10:30 < kanzure> even as a consensus rule, these are basically controlled by minrs
10:31 < kanzure> .. miners.
10:31 < bsm117532> Block headers are simpler, if a hard fork is on the table.  But anywhere in the tx list works as well.
10:31 < kanzure> you can trivially censor certain commitments, as a miner. and use other commitments instead.
10:31 < bsm117532> If it's a consensus rule, and a miner calculates the commitments incorrectly, other miners will ignore his block...
10:32 < bsm117532> If you calculate the Merkle root of the txns incorrectly...other miners will ignore the bad block (for instance)
10:32 < kanzure> for censorship resistance, "it's included" is not enough.
10:32 < bsm117532> You can't censor that.
10:33 < bsm117532> The assumption is that light clients can get block headers and commitments.  If you're going to fully censor light clients...there's nothing any protocol rule can do to prevent that...
10:34 < kanzure> nah, i was citing the fraud proof problem in particular: you can get a commitment to a light client, but nobody is ever going to give you enough information to implicate themselves (missing information), and also, if you don't have tight rules around calculation of the commitments (which usulaly requires "all the data" anyway...). ....
10:35 < kanzure> btw what is your "public auditing of commitments" scheme?
10:35 < bsm117532> Some data structures (Merklix, MMR) allow for the light clients to mutate the commitments with publicly available information: http://www.deadalnix.me/2016/09/29/using-merklix-tree-to-checkpoint-an-utxo-set/
10:36 < bsm117532> My "public auditing of commitments" scheme is that everyone will want one, and the best possible auditing is to put them directly in the block headers.  Intermediate steps are...intermediate and flawed.
10:37  * bsm117532 goes back to read the merklix and mmr things...again...
10:38 < kanzure> did you see my client-side validation braindump a few days ago?
10:38 < bsm117532> No...
10:39 < kanzure> i have a scheme where blocks are just a merkle root, list of pubkeys, a BLS multisig from the privkeys over the merkle root, a list of output hashes, and a BLS multisig of the privkeys over some output hashes
10:39 < bsm117532> Link?
10:39 < kanzure> and then transactions are superhuge merkle proofs and inclusion proofs
10:40 < kanzure> such that, if you don't do a transaction during a block, you don't have to give a merkle proof for that block to a potential recipient (since your pubkey is not listed/didn't sign)
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10:40 < kanzure> http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2016-12-03.log
10:47 < bsm117532> I think we're saying something similar.  I want clients to be able to mutate their proofs using block header data, rather than requesting new ones from a server for each block.
10:50 < kanzure> my observation was that most "everything is a merkle root" schemes requires the transfer of either all transactions or some sort of merkle tree update data inside each block, which is unfortunately not very helpful to the challenges we're looking at--- so instead, why not offer a way that miners interactively give the inclusion proof to the spenders for that single block, and then have a def...
10:50 < bsm117532> If we can pull that off, it would go a long way to improving privacy: light clients would only need to request a proof once.
10:50 < kanzure> ...ault way that non-participation in a block signals to potential recipients that inclusion proofs are not necessary for those intermediate blocks where no state updates occur [for those spenders].
10:52 < bsm117532> kanzure: If you have any other refs to any "everything is a merkle root" schemes I'd be interested in reading them...
10:55 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/milan/client-side-validation/
10:55 < kanzure> you were there...
10:55 < bsm117532> I know :-P
10:55 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/milan/breaking-the-chain/
10:55 < bsm117532> I'm just slow at wrapping my head around it.
10:57 < kanzure> bsm117532: transactions become giant proofs that recipients send around.  miners just publish an arbitrary merkle root. nobody can reconstruct it except the miner (or if everyone reveals their proofs i guess).  each block can have whatever data in the merkle tree.
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10:58 < kanzure> (also, miner fees work the same way)
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11:18 < bsm117532> Anyone seen bramc in a while?  He made a bunch of changes to his MerkleSet just 4 days ago... https://github.com/bramcohen/MerkleSet
11:20 < bsm117532> I think that bramc's ideas would not allow for client side mutation/validation...
11:20 < kanzure> he should write some unit tests for that
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--- Log closed Sat Dec 10 00:00:34 2016