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08:28 < nicolagreco> petertodd: does the proof-of-publication that you write about in your post only applies to transactions, correct? Can I do a proof of publication of a digest?
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11:20 < kanzure> in chaumian group signatures, why is the identify of the signer unknowabe?
11:27 < kanzure> "Short linkable ring signatures for e-voting, e-cash and attestation" https://eprint.iacr.org/2004/281.pdf
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11:34 < kanzure> i guess i want "signer distinguishability"
11:41 < kanzure> libgroupsig supports traceability....
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16:19 < fluffypony> kanzure: you need traceability to prevent double spends (in a cryptocurrency setting) and double votes (in a blind voting setting)
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16:20 < kanzure> fluffypony: i need something other than an accumulator. i need to check if a pubkey participated in a signature, without having a list of all the pubkeys that made the group signature (or aggregate signature or something).
16:21 < fluffypony> hmmmm
16:21 < fluffypony> yeah in Monero's ring sigs you can see all the pubkeys, and whilst the key image doesn't reveal the true signer it does require the pubkeys to verify
16:22 < fluffypony> I don't know if you can have verification of the traceable component without revealing the pubkeys in a ring
16:22 < fluffypony> and not being able to verify the trace is obviously bad, because then it could be false
16:22 < kanzure> also i would like this magic to be constant size
16:23 < fluffypony> bed time, I'll give this some thought tomorrow
16:23 < kanzure> thank you
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17:43 < kanzure> it's interesting to think about history size limits and rate limits in a client-side validation scheme perspective-- it can be a rate limit on transaction history size growth, or on total number of transactions, many other things.
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17:48 < kanzure> Taek: have you described your "no blocks, only transactions" scheme somewhere?
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20:54 < Taek> kanzure: It evolved in to Jute, which is the presentation I gave in Milan
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20:55 < kanzure> alright. i've been looking at a way to do a scheme with a single merkle root of a merkle tree of arbitrary data. starting to look into all the DAGy parts i might want to put in there.
20:58 < Taek> I think client side validation has a lot of potential, but you still need some guarantee of extensibility
20:58 < Taek> err - my understanding of client side validation is that you now somekthing is valid becuase the spender gives you the whole history of the transaction, which makes it easy for you to know that the transaction is correct without having the whole history of everythign
20:59 < kanzure> Taek: my problem at the moment is that blocks require a list of pubkeys, and i'm trying to eliminate that requirement :\ otherwise it's O(n) block size again
21:00 < Taek> are we talking about Peter Todd's work?
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21:00 < Taek> my understanding is that you only need to download the history relevant to you
21:00 < Taek> which would include the public key stuff
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21:01 < kanzure> Taek: so, in my shceme, blocks do not include merkle tree updates/deltas/diffs
21:02 < Taek> pardon if I missed a link from earlier, but do you have a general description somewhere?
21:02 < kanzure> Taek: http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2016-12-03.log
21:02 < kanzure> start near "weirdo proof-of-publication scheme"
21:03 < kanzure> also i can eliminate the list of output hashes in that description, in exchange for an extra client-side consensus rule (which is a good trade in my opinion)
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21:18 < kanzure> and now the trick is to eliminate the list of pubkeys. somehow. :|
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21:22 < Taek> hmm
21:23 < Taek> how do you get rid of the output hashes?
21:24 < kanzure> Taek: use same merkle tree location determined by pubkey or some other previous detail from history. always use same location.
21:24 < kanzure> list of output hashes was to prevent double spending. but having only one possible location for a double spend to appear at eliminates this problem (for a double spend in the current block).
21:25 < Taek> That's more or less what I was picturing
21:25 < Taek> but, you need to see the data in that merkle tree location every block to know that the output wasn't spent
21:25 < kanzure> no :)
21:26 < Taek> oh?
21:26 < kanzure> say you're a recipient receiving a bunch of merkle inclusion proofs
21:26 < Taek> oh is that what the list of public keys is for?
21:26 < kanzure> the spender says yo dawg i don't have a proof for block N
21:26 < kanzure> in the normal scheme you would say "well in block N you probably are hiding a double spend, so... give me the merkle inclusion proof"
21:27 < kanzure> for a spender that was offline during block N, he wont have any merkle inclusion proof to share you, right? this is indistinguishable from the malicious behavior :D.
21:27 < kanzure> so the alternative is to have the list of pubkeys yes
21:27 < kanzure> now, a list of pubkeys can be forged by a miner, therefore you need an aggregate signature where all the participants sign the merkle root (as an indication that yes they received a merkle inclusion proof from the miner)
21:28 < kanzure> so a potential recipient needs to be able to check all the intermediate blocks (between merkle inclusion proofs for each 'coin') to determine whether the recipient should expect to receive a merkle inclusion proof
21:29 < kanzure> if they do not receive the proof, then the recipient knows that they might be receiving double spent coins
21:32 < kanzure> so eliminating the list of pubkeys-- but keeping that property--- is important because you get a <10 kb block size for almost arbitrarily many transactions.
21:34 < Taek> I see
21:34 < Taek> it's interactive then
21:35 < Taek> at least as I currently understand it
21:35 < Taek> where, first you have the 'aggregating' phase, where everyone is submitting transactions to the miner, and then you have the inclusion signing phase
21:35 < Taek> hmm
21:36 < Taek> maybe there is some wiggle room to cut down on interactivity
21:38 < kanzure> sure, there's some problems there, and also the merkle inclusion proof stuff is a huge huge burden on clients
21:38 < Taek> depends I guess on how complex the history of the transaction is
21:39 < kanzure> it would probably grow pretty huge.   but perhaps there's various kinds of magic to deal with that elsewhere.
21:39 < kanzure> and also, the interactivity puts a constraint on history growth at least inside a single block, because of DoS problems as you grow the size of the number of spenders heh
21:40 < kanzure> (although the DoS problems might not be real--- if someone doesn't sign, that might be OK. it's just invalid data.)
21:40 < Taek> well, you've got this ability to compress things a lot, maybe enough that you can put strict spendability rules on an output. For example,  it can only be spent to a single input
21:40 < Taek> this means that the history of the output grows linearly with the number of times it has been spent, as opposed to exponentially
21:40 < Taek> it also means that people with more money have more history, because you'd probably set every output to like 0.0001 btc or something
21:41 < Taek> and that seems pretty fair to me
21:41 < kanzure> my number one priority was looking at the block data structure, before thinking about transaction history proof size reduction stuff
21:41 < Taek> yeah still stuck with those public keys
21:41 < kanzure> and O(n) list of pubkeys is a real bummer
21:41 < Taek> well, this seems like something that snarks might be useful for
21:42 < Taek> the O(n) pubkeys + sigs being the input, and a snark sig being the output
21:42 < Taek> though that's still not good enough imo because the interactivity requirements are pretty big
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21:42 < kanzure> the output is just a signature over the merkle root, for each pubkey or something, to prove that the spenders have received their merkle inclusion proofs
21:42 < Taek> right
21:43 < kanzure> well, so, the other way to think about this is: design a system where you know that the entire block data structure is just a merkle root and some other constant size data.   and then build up from there.
21:43 < kanzure> if you were okay with long-hiding double spends, you could just use a merkle root and be done with it
21:44 < kanzure> clients would be responsible for detecting double spends in transaction graph history data
21:45 < kanzure> however, literally anyone could collude with any miner to introduce a double spend
21:45 < Taek> right
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21:46 < Taek> having a giant list of public keys is still better I think than what we're doing today
21:46 < Taek> it's like maybe 4x scalability or something, in terms of what data is necessary for everyone to store
21:47 < kanzure> well if each pubkey is 32 bytes, do the math, it's like 30k transactions/block only
21:47 < kanzure> where are you getting 4x from btw?
21:48 < Taek> mostly pulled it out of the air. Transactions are 225 bytes today, and with this you can squeeze it down to 32 + some constant factor
21:48 < Taek> but you lose a lot of the scriptability
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21:48 < kanzure> the scriptability is on the client side, it's still there
21:49 < Taek> oh right
21:49 < kanzure> .wa 1 MB / 32 bytes
21:49 < yoleaux> kanzure: Sorry, no result!
21:52 < Taek> 31,250
21:52 < Taek> :p
21:53 < Taek> I guess then that everything else is constant size
21:56 < kanzure> it feels very strange that a merkle root scheme like this is limited to only 31,250
21:57 < Taek> So, if we combine a scheme like this with something like Jute and push the block size out to say... 10 MB, that's 15 billion transactions per year. Which is enough to scale to the whole planet if most everyone is using lightning
22:00 < kanzure> somehow i thought a merkle tree scheme should get us way more than 31,250/block
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22:05 < kanzure> Taek: it might be more than 31,250/block technically... since the same pubkey could refer to multiple inputs.
22:05 < Taek> so we need a way to eliminate the public keys, and ideally also a way to remove the interactivity from the inclusion proof
22:05 < kanzure> to eliminate the interactivity, you would have to include the inclusion proofs in the block data. tada! but this is going in the opposite direction :).
22:06 < Taek> also, have to be careful about how much burden is being placed on the miner - providing 30,000 inclusion proofs to people making requests is going to be a bottleneck at some ponit
22:06 < Taek> though it's a lot easier than having blocks of the same size, because instead of doing the data through a flood network it's all direct-to-spender
22:07 < kanzure> no, the miner can choose to make a small block
22:07 < Taek> and collect less fees, which would be a centralization pressure
22:07 < kanzure> if they can't handle 30,000 inclusion proofs then they can just do a handful of inclusion proofs --- in fact, some spenders could do aggregation, and then distribute inclusion proofs to their multisig participants etc
22:08 < Taek> aggregation might also be how you eliminate smoe of the interactivity
22:08 < Taek> If I recall, some of the MAST signature stuff has a way to deal with absent participants
22:08 < Taek> basically the size of the signature grows with the number of people absent from the signing process
22:08 < kanzure> re: collecting less fees, i dunno if that's true....    so, the bottleneck is actually miner's validation of historical data.   it's not the ability to generate inclusion proofs.   if you encourage everyone to submit through multisig, then you only give back 1 inclusion proof.  it's the validation of prior history that kills a small miner.
22:09 < Taek> doesn't need to be the miner's job to only include valid transactions
22:09 < kanzure> if you had lots of "freshly minted" fees, a small miner can take that almost immediately, without any difficulty, for almost an arbitrary number of transactions
22:09 < Taek> miner shouldn't have to do any script verification
22:10 < kanzure> miners must do script verification --- how do they check their fees? :D
22:10 < Taek> ah darn
22:10 < kanzure> but yes, other than fees, miners can include totally invalid wacky stuff, sure
22:11 < kanzure> which they are welcome to do.
22:13 < kanzure> in fact, if you're a small miner, perhaps you outsource your history validation or you accept any history of any fee at all, on the hopes that you can later upgrade to beefier hardware.   but you could also instead choose to accept coins with shorter histories... if a coin was mined 500 blocks ago, spent once, you only have 2 inclusion proofs or something, it's not so bad... it's only coins ...
22:13 < kanzure> ...that have a lot of weird history that become problematic for small miners.
22:14 < Taek> hmm I really like the way you can skip the inclusion proofs by mandating that inclusion proofs are only valid if there's a signature from the spender in the block header
22:15 < kanzure> and likewise: coin spends are only valid if the signature is in the block too
22:15 < kanzure> (well, a related signature at least)
22:15 < Taek> you could also make life easier for the miner by paying the fee using outputs with little history
22:16 < kanzure> also.... if you're transacting a lot, you're incentivized to go do that on some other system.  only use on-chain for occasional movements.
22:16 < kanzure> (because doing many transactions increases the history size)
22:16 < kanzure> yes, in general you would select coins that have little history, not just for the miner fee but for all of your spends
22:17 < Taek> it is interesting because it means coins with more history are worth less
22:17 < kanzure> the client-side can also have some pruning rules if you were really worried about transaction history hyper growth.... after a transaction has been in the strong set for a certain amount of time, perhaps it's okay to assume it doesn't need further validation. (not to mention that everyone is already doing validation caching of course)
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22:24 < kanzure> Taek: what kind of DAG goodness can be applied to this?
22:25 < Taek> The dag stuff that I've been working on is mostly concerned with turning a dag into a line
22:25 < kanzure> and weak blocks in parents
22:25 < Taek> Or rather, taking a bunch of blocks that were produced in parallel and finding a secure way to get a strict/total ordering on them
22:27 < Taek> so, I don't think most of that applies here
22:28 < kanzure> in my scheme, you can give very tiny output amounts to small cpu miners i think
22:29 < Taek> ?
22:30 < Taek> I don't quite follow
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22:30 < kanzure> the client-side rules can be whatever; the miner splits the coinbase output into a hundred billion pieces or something.
22:31 < Taek> ah
22:31 < Taek> hmm
22:31 < Taek> that's almost more p2pool-ish
22:32 < Taek> I'll have to sleep on it some, this seems like a pretty interesting way to build up a block
22:32 < Taek> re: the script stuff, you'd really end up with like 2 scripts
22:32 < Taek> the first is the one that is public and seen by everyone, and the second is the one that's only seen by the validator
22:33 < Taek> because, if you're doing something like m-of-n multisig, you need any 'm' to be able to spend the output
22:33 < Taek> but if you only have 1 public key, you essentially get a situation where any of the 'n' can spend the output and then withhold the data from everyone else
22:33 < Taek> they might spend the output in an invalid way, but nobody would ever know because the data is being withheld
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22:39 < kanzure> err i think maybe coalitions in a multisig scheme would be able to double spend each other, based on which coalition signed last time or something? i dunno
22:47 < Taek> they couldn't double spend I don't think, just prevent the other person from spending
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--- Log closed Mon Dec 12 00:00:36 2016