--- Log opened Sat Dec 17 00:00:40 2016 00:02 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:03 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fudfgerhfaooewxi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:04 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:11 -!- blackwraith [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:12 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:14 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:17 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:18 -!- blackwraith [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:19 -!- sn0wmonster [~yeti@taskhive/developer/sn0wmonster] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:19 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:20 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:27 -!- 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#bitcoin-wizards 02:44 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:51 -!- Topogetcyrpto_ [~Topogetcy@105.156.104.121] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:52 -!- Topogetcyrpto [~Topogetcy@105.156.116.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:52 -!- Topogetcyrpto_ is now known as Topogetcyrpto 03:06 -!- JackH_ [~laptop@79-73-185-145.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:15 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:24 -!- jtimon [~quassel@231.110.132.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:38 -!- nikivi [~nikivi@dhcp-077-250-172-150.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:42 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:52 -!- mountaingoat [~mountaing@unaffiliated/mountaingoat] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:54 < btcdrak> utsav: I think it was moved to a new domain enigma.co 04:05 -!- mountaingoat [~mountaing@unaffiliated/mountaingoat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:09 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:21 -!- mountaingoat [~mountaing@unaffiliated/mountaingoat] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:39 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:39 -!- mountaingoat [~mountaing@unaffiliated/mountaingoat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:00 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:00 -!- nikivi [~nikivi@dhcp-077-250-172-150.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: zzz] 05:10 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:11 -!- nikivi [~nikivi@dhcp-077-250-172-150.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:14 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:18 < uiuc-slack> ah 05:21 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:26 -!- nikivi [~nikivi@dhcp-077-250-172-150.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: irc] 05:31 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-40-227-45-190.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:32 -!- pro [~pro@unaffiliated/pro] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:38 -!- Alina-malina is now known as eviL-sivlE 05:38 -!- eviL-sivlE is now known as Alina-malina 05:39 -!- abpa [~abpa@2602:306:b837:dbf0:dd28:bfdd:5b2a:6fd8] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz...] 06:16 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:16 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:19 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:19 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:30 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:31 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:57 < nsh> 'Solve Trust with Math Instead of Contracts' and other false dichotomies 07:08 < kanzure> solve trust by removing all humans from the face of the planet 07:16 -!- alpalp [~allen@unaffiliated/alpalp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:38 -!- tromp_ [~tromp@rtc35-115.rentec.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:42 -!- nikivi [~nikivi@dhcp-077-250-172-150.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:50 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:52 -!- alpalp [~allen@cpe-24-27-58-209.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52 -!- alpalp [~allen@cpe-24-27-58-209.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 07:52 -!- alpalp [~allen@unaffiliated/alpalp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:02 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:03 -!- hazirafel [~hazirafel@109.65.140.133] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:11 < dgenr8> solve trust by real-time flawless understanding of entire codebase and execution environment 08:12 -!- Sosumi [~Leon@bl10-113-190.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:25 -!- alpalp [~allen@unaffiliated/alpalp] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 08:26 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:36 -!- alpalp [~allen@cpe-24-27-58-209.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:36 -!- alpalp [~allen@cpe-24-27-58-209.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 08:36 -!- alpalp [~allen@unaffiliated/alpalp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:37 -!- nikivi [~nikivi@dhcp-077-250-172-150.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: irc] 08:40 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:41 -!- alpalp [~allen@unaffiliated/alpalp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:44 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:50 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:54 -!- hazirafel [~hazirafel@109.65.140.133] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:59 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:00 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Client Quit] 09:04 < nicolagreco> amiller_: I am reading c0c0 right now 09:05 < nicolagreco> what is funny is that in Italian zero-knowledge is sometime abbreviated with c0 which means conoscenza zero 09:05 -!- kankles [~kankles@107.152.98.147] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:06 -!- airbreather_ 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[Max SendQ exceeded] 11:17 -!- harrymm [~wayne@45.56.152.38] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:19 -!- tromp_ [~tromp@rtc35-037.rentec.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:20 -!- jtimon [~quassel@231.110.132.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:23 -!- blackwraith [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:24 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 11:34 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:34 -!- sdfgdsfg [~sdfgsdfg@unaffiliated/sdfgsdfg] has quit [Quit: Noam Chomsky] 11:49 -!- afk11 [~afk11@unaffiliated/afk11] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:49 < kanzure> https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-rfc 11:52 -!- harrymm [~wayne@45.56.152.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:55 -!- afk11 [~afk11@176.61.67.182] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:55 -!- afk11 [~afk11@176.61.67.182] has quit [Changing host] 11:55 -!- afk11 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[~afk11@unaffiliated/afk11] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:44 -!- airbreather_ [~airbreath@d149-67-99-43.nap.wideopenwest.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:47 -!- airbreather [~airbreath@d149-67-99-43.nap.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:49 -!- afk11 [~afk11@unaffiliated/afk11] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:53 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:55 -!- afk11 [~afk11@176.61.67.182] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:55 -!- afk11 [~afk11@176.61.67.182] has quit [Changing host] 12:55 -!- afk11 [~afk11@unaffiliated/afk11] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:58 -!- CrazyLoaf [uid67551@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dmmmunkujturrdjm] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:58 -!- shesek [~shesek@bzq-84-110-55-170.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:02 -!- harrymm [~wayne@104.222.140.105] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:03 -!- windsok [~windsok@45.63.59.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:08 -!- airbreather_ is now known as airbreather 13:09 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:10 -!- airbreather_ [~airbreath@d149-67-99-43.nap.wideopenwest.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:12 -!- alpalp [~allen@unaffiliated/alpalp] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:13 -!- airbreather [~airbreath@d149-67-99-43.nap.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:13 -!- windsok [~windsok@45.63.59.8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:18 -!- afk11 [~afk11@unaffiliated/afk11] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:24 < kanzure> Taek: so.... in a block data structure scheme where the only contents is a merkle root, you can't use confirmations to check safety of receiving some coins-- you have to spend some tiny portion and hope that it becomes economically useful (probably best way to do this is tumbling/mixing?) and see whether anyone generates a fraud proof for you. instead of waiting for a number of blocks, you ... 13:24 < kanzure> ...wait for a number of 'child transactions' and a giant branching tree to develop in the economy. 13:24 < Taek> definitely not a fan of anything that relies on fraud proofs for validity 13:25 < kanzure> also, if the network and economy is highly partitioned, then this is highly vulnerable unless you are checking TLS certs or something (by which i mean... attestation from known entities that certain double spends have not been seen.) 13:25 < kanzure> well, the validity is not defined by fraud proos 13:25 < Taek> their absense is not a guarantee though, right? 13:25 < kanzure> right, so to get a guarantee, you have to spend immediately 13:25 -!- afk11 [~afk11@176.61.67.182] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:25 -!- afk11 [~afk11@176.61.67.182] has quit [Changing host] 13:25 -!- afk11 [~afk11@unaffiliated/afk11] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:26 < kanzure> you go straight to this giant mixer that /everyone/ participates in 13:26 < Taek> oh 13:27 < Taek> hmm 13:27 < kanzure> and someone will spot the fraud. it's like an unconfirmed transaction until either (1) someone spots the fraud, or (2) it reaches a certain depth of 'confirmation'. 13:27 < kanzure> like i said, you can't use block depth as confirmations heh 13:27 < kanzure> block depth can at most only be used for coinbase maturity of subsidy/minting 13:30 < kanzure> if the economy isn't partitioned, and you somehow spend to 10% of the economy, and if there's some technical means for you to hear back from any of them if they have a fraud proof, then that seems like a reasonable way to know whether you should consider yourself to have received money. 13:30 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:30 -!- afk11 [~afk11@unaffiliated/afk11] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:31 < kanzure> there's lots of sybil and DoS problems here as i pointed out, which is why i mentioned attestation as a useful element to this scheme 13:34 < kanzure> for example, when you join the network, you would join by connecting to at least one friend (same as you join bitcoin now-- you need to connect to at least 1 honest node) 13:37 -!- afk11 [~afk11@176.61.67.182] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:37 -!- afk11 [~afk11@176.61.67.182] has quit [Changing host] 13:37 -!- afk11 [~afk11@unaffiliated/afk11] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:38 -!- nullfxn [~nullFxn@107-147-108-164.res.bhn.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:41 -!- airbreather_ is now known as airbreather 13:42 < kanzure> i think this is conceptually similar to the 'offline' outsourceable channel monitoring that lightning does 13:43 -!- airbreather_ [~airbreath@d149-67-99-43.nap.wideopenwest.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:44 -!- afk11 [~afk11@unaffiliated/afk11] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:46 -!- airbreather [~airbreath@d149-67-99-43.nap.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:47 -!- blackwraith [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:48 < kanzure> or really, the thing to do is to double spend it immediately to a bajillion other people, and then collect all the resulting fraud proofs, and check that all the fraud proofs are only because of your attempt to re-spend so many times heh 13:49 -!- Sosumi [~Leon@bl10-113-190.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Bye] 13:53 -!- afk11 [~afk11@176.61.67.182] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:53 -!- afk11 [~afk11@176.61.67.182] has quit [Changing host] 13:53 -!- afk11 [~afk11@unaffiliated/afk11] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:00 -!- airbreather_ is now known as airbreather 14:03 -!- metamarc [~cypher@71-9-187-74.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:03 -!- metamarc [~cypher@71-9-187-74.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 14:03 -!- metamarc [~cypher@unaffiliated/agorist000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:20 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the 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[Quit: irc] 15:53 -!- harrymm [~wayne@104.222.140.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:11 -!- harrymm [~wayne@167.160.116.248] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:13 -!- rusty2 [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:33 -!- Yogh [~Yogh@f36186.upc-f.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:40 < kanzure> https://github.com/eternitywall/javascript-opentimestamps 16:58 -!- CrazyLoaf [uid67551@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dmmmunkujturrdjm] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 17:10 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-40-227-45-190.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:11 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz...] 17:16 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:21 -!- rusty2 [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:21 -!- davec [~davec@cpe-24-243-230-253.hot.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:22 -!- davec [~davec@cpe-24-243-230-253.hot.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:25 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:30 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:32 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:34 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:51 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:06 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:07 -!- Ylbam 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