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03:32 < petertodd> bsm1175321: that's correct: there's nothing stopping them. OTOH, it's trivial to mirror OpenTimestamps calendars. Or at least, it will be once I write some more code to make it possible.
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03:33 < petertodd> bsm1175321: I'm perfectly happy for OpenTimestamps to be a semi-trusted centralized system given the low risks involved.
03:33 < petertodd> bsm1175321: Much easier than putting in the massive amount of engineering effort need to make it decentralized, particularly when it's not clear that such work would result in a system that in practice was all that much more reliable.
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05:49 <@kanzure> .title https://arxiv.org/abs/1612.05491
05:49 < yoleaux> [1612.05491] Strong Federations: An Interoperable Blockchain Solution to Centralized Third Party Risks
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05:57 < kanzure> andytoshi: typo "Existing proposals to form consensus for BItcoin-like"
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07:34 < Chris_Stewart_5> On page 4 of the 'strong federation' paper it says "If  the  majority  of  Watchmen  remain
07:34 < Chris_Stewart_5> secure,  the  value  held  by  the  sidechain  cannot  be  redeemed
07:34 < Chris_Stewart_5> on the parent blockchain
07:34 < Chris_Stewart_5> shouldn't 'cannot' -> 'can'?
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07:52 < instagibbs> Chris_Stewart_5, I believe this is saying funds can't be *stolen*, as it acts as a multisig wallet
07:54 < instagibbs> so whatever number of watchmen you require to peg out funds, which can be arbitrarily high, with a risk of pegouts halting due to failure(which leads to Backup Withdrawal if long enough))
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08:33 < stevenroose> Chris_Stewart_5, yeah, I interpreted it as "the value on held by the sidechain cannot be redeemed on the parent blockchain [by the attacker]"
08:36 < Chris_Stewart_5> stevenroose: Definitely agree if the [by the attacker] part is added it makes it seem less ambigous
08:37 < Chris_Stewart_5> because, if the majority of watchmen remain secure, you should always be able to redeem your bitcoin from the sidechain
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12:19 < kanzure> .title https://arxiv.org/abs/1701.04439
12:19 < yoleaux> [1701.04439] Dandelion: Redesigning the Bitcoin Network for Anonymity
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12:22 < bsm117532> This appears to be about the anonymity of *nodes* not fungibility
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12:29 < othe> yes its a p2p stack improvement, not sure it does add any value that tor/i2p wouldnt add
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12:31 < bsm117532> There is an advance to be had there that improve on i2p/tor...using mixnets.
12:35 < gmaxwell> kanzure: thats great! it sounds like it's vaguely related to the propagation design I was proposing https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1377345.0 ("One possible scheme [...]") though my focus was on communication efficiency; but one of the challenges was figuring out how to analyize it.
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12:47 < instagibbs> AFAICT the paper is assuming malicious nodes are following the rules, "honest-but-curious", although they suggest some future work to mitigate
12:47 < petertodd> would someone mind getting me a copy of 55dcfebff45d7e4f9970edd053c87cb0b659e459f4f6360d4a2c17837e79410 and a736822a4f518eb137658030f1e11a804d64d1da48c195222f604aaf2df908e from testnet?
12:48 < petertodd> I don't know of any tbtc block explorers that have raw hex output
12:49 < sipa_> petertodd: are those txn or blocks?
12:49 < petertodd> sipa_: txn
12:49 < petertodd> sipa_: blocks would have more zeros :)
12:50 < sipa_> parameter 1 must be hexadecimal string (not 'a736822a4f518eb137658030f1e11a804d64d1da48c195222f604aaf2df908e')
12:50 < gmaxwell> wtf
12:50 < gmaxwell> parameter 1 must be hexadecimal string (not '55dcfebff45d7e4f9970edd053c87cb0b659e459f4f6360d4a2c17837e79410')
12:50 < petertodd> whoops! d55dcfebff45d7e4f9970edd053c87cb0b659e459f4f6360d4a2c17837e79410
12:50 < petertodd> and 1a736822a4f518eb137658030f1e11a804d64d1da48c195222f604aaf2df908e
12:50 < gmaxwell> oops pruned my desktop testnet node.
12:51 < sipa_> i don't have txindex, but i can give you the block :)
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12:51 < petertodd> sipa_: haha, better than nothing!
12:51 < bsm117532> Ihttps://www.zerobin.net/?c39161fcdfd0c31f#nmfl1Ct6BTMejqASK8b0qr9tKzGvTPU9IBw8ox+ybBM=
12:52 < sipa_> https://www.zerobin.net/?73996c6f36722663#FbvFBi2hJwBmCMT1WBqCcSMESR2F7ODEIKo3adDCztc=
12:52 < bsm117532> https://www.zerobin.net/?11f9527e189b313c#Y51RPqRERyq9mxUUmXw4kYGRSgRp2xuWTUfSJ/l9Ip0=
12:52 < petertodd> bsm1175321: thanks!
12:52 < petertodd> sipa_: and also thanks!
12:53 < bsm117532> I don't understand how anyone lives without txindex :-P
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12:53 < sipa_> bsm117532: :(
12:53 < sipa_> that's the saddest thing i've heard in a while
12:55 < bsm117532> Hahaaa why?
12:55 < gmaxwell> because it craps on performance and scalablity.
12:56 < sipa_> if everyone needs a fully indexed unprunable bitcoin node, all our scalability attempts are worthless
12:56 < bsm117532> Having to scan the blockchain linearly craps on performance of apps.
12:56 < sipa_> so build applications that don't need to access old forgotten transactions
12:56 < bsm117532> I explicitly need that.
12:56 < sipa_> except if you're building a block explorer like site, i don't see any use case for them
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12:57 < sipa_> or analysis things
12:57 < gmaxwell> bsm117532: if you're having to scan the chain then you're totally incompatible with pruning... not a long term viable configuration; anything that depends on txindex will be forced to use bc.i like third party trusted APIs N years from now, where N depends on particulars of the system growth and user's tolerance for costs.
12:57 < bsm117532> Agreed wallet-like applications can/should dump old data.
12:58 < bsm117532> gmaxwell: I accept that compromise.  Further I can't prune witness data either.
12:58 < sipa_> i'm not sure i want to know what you're doing then :)
12:58 < bsm117532> I'm re-using your old (spent) bitcoin keys for other purposes.
12:59 < bsm117532> (namely, identity)
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13:00 < sipa_> well, good luck
13:00 < bsm117532> Heh
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16:28 < adiabat> I use txindex on testnet a lot because... it's testnet
16:28 < adiabat> e.g. where did this utxo come from?  How come this gives me an error, it's the same as that tx before! ...etc
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17:19 < Eliel_> I suspect most users (of those who need it at all) will be happy with 1-2 years worth of txindex.
17:20 < sipa> for debugging purposes, i totally understand
17:20 < sipa> but have yet to see an actual production use case for it
17:20 < sipa> that can't be avoided with a perhaps slightly more complicated but more scalable solution
17:21 < gmaxwell> sometimes the 'better way' has warts that rightfully scare people off; but unfortunately those don't get fixed if the people encountering them don't report them.
17:22 < gmaxwell> For example, the manual pruning thing in 0.14 should have been a day one feature; but it was a long time until someone pointed out the problem. (that if you use pruning + some system that needs to suck in data before it gets pruned, that with node restarts the data can be pruned before your code has a chance to do its thing)
17:22 < gmaxwell> similarly, until importmulti the api had no way to scan a small range of recent blocks.
17:24 < Eliel_> yes, people don't tend to report problems that are easily worked around.
17:25 < sipa> my view is that anything that relies on a full blockchain (or worse, an indexed one, or even worse, an address-indexed one) is just building infrastructure that only very temporarily is the simpler choice
17:29 < Eliel_> I think more than 3 years of history in an address index won't benefit much of anyone, but 3 years of address index is a necessity for people doing bookkeeping.
17:30 < sipa> for your own transactions, sure
17:30 < sipa> wallets can take care of that perfectly fine
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17:30 < sipa> not every f*cking transaction in the world
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17:31 < gmaxwell> only temporarily decenteralized at all-- e.g. if you need the whole blockchain and many indexes then eventually you'll be depending on some service as it will be the only really cost effective way to get that info.
17:32 < Eliel_> sipa: only if you know in advance which wallets you need to track, unfortunately.
17:32 < gmaxwell> Eliel_: three years of address history is a small constant factor of the whole size, under exponetial growth, and yet it can't let you discover all the relevant transactions for a wallet. lose/lose
17:32 < sipa> Eliel_: you always do
17:33 < sipa> Eliel_: a newly generated address by definition has no history
17:33 < mryandao> a hash collision is a remote possibility
17:34 < sipa> there are emergency recovery cases where you may want to import existing keys, but that's about the only case i can imagine
17:34 < adiabat> I think the model of address-indexed and pruned could maybe make sense
17:34 < sipa> adiabat: address-indexed utxo set... sure!
17:35 < gmaxwell> mryandao: there is a 'chance' that all protons on the earth spontaniously decay turning all matter into an atomic bomb, vaporizing the solar system.
17:35 < adiabat> sipa: in practice, most of the address-index applications really just want the utxo set without scanning
17:35 < sipa> adiabat: sure, no problem with that
17:35 < gmaxwell> well, I still feel pretty uncomfortable with the utxo indexing, as they're incompatible with TXO.
17:35 < Eliel_> sipa: well, granted, long term that might actually be the case. Right now, though, you do need the damn address index to do bookkeeping.
17:36 < sipa> Eliel_: i really don't understand why
17:36 < gmaxwell> Eliel_: you absolutely shouldn't today, and if you do then there are correctable short comings that _need_ to get corrected.
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17:37 < gmaxwell> The last the ones I know of in Bitcoin Core are already corrected for 0.14. There may be more, but if so I don't know about them.
17:37 < Eliel_> gmaxwell: there most certainly are shortcomings, such as multitude of wallet software that somehow needs to be brought into one system so any kind of bookkeeping is possible.
17:37 < sipa> ?
17:38 < kanzure> addresses are not accounts, use utxos and transactions instead
17:38 < Eliel_> there's a whole zoo of wallets out there.
17:38 < sipa> ok, why is that a problem?
17:38 < gmaxwell> I can't figure out what you're saying there.
17:40 < Eliel_> ok, try imagine doing bookkeeping for a company where for different parts of the team have each used a different wallet software.
17:40 < Eliel_> and you get tasked with making sense of the mess.
17:40 < sipa> get them to use one wallet
17:40 < sipa> why is that related to txindex?
17:41 < Eliel_> I'd love to have a time machine to do it :)
17:41 < gmaxwell> Eliel_: you can't do bookkeeping just from address data, because you won't have access to all the metadata and context in any case.
17:41 < gmaxwell> This is why (forensic) accountants get paid the big bucks.
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17:43 < Eliel_> gmaxwell: correct, but the metadata somehow tends to be stored outside the wallet... it's just, you need to transactions to be able to make sense of it.
17:44 < Eliel_> and it's much simpler to export the wallet into a centralized system than to try to work with whatever everyone was using.
17:45 < Eliel_> and sync from the blockchain data.
17:46 < Eliel_> but no-one is going to be doing this for anything over 3 years old.
17:46 < sipa> why do you need a transaction index for that? if you're exporting things from existing wallets, they already have the transactions
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17:52 < Eliel_> sipa: They might have the transactions, but tend to lack sensible ways to export them in formats that are useful.
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17:53 < sipa> if running a txindex was expensive, then i'm sure adding that feature to that software would be trivial
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17:54 < Eliel_> sure, if you have someone who knows the code. That doesn't tend to be the case though.
17:54  * sipa points to the topic of this channel
17:55 < sipa> we're not talking about today here :)
17:55 < Eliel_> but yeah, these issues are likely going to be fixed in the future.
17:56 < sipa> sure, txindex is the easiest solution for some cases _today_
17:56 < sipa> but the case you're talking about is not one i'm afraid of
17:56 < sipa> people who demand txindex and addrindex features to _build a wallet_ because it seems easier, scares me a lot
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17:57 < Eliel_> almost every wallet comes with standard ways to export private keys and addresses out of it. However, I don't think I've seen any that let you export the transactions in a standard format... Speaking of which, I haven't seen a spec for such a standard either.
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17:58 < sipa> ?
17:58 < sipa> raw transactions?
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17:59 < Eliel_> most wallets don't provide any way to export transactions except the UI views that's usually too simplified to be useful.
18:00 < Eliel_> so, if you want to get the transaction data to another system, rebuilding the wallet from the full blockchain data is the only option
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18:00 < sipa> that implies the on-chain transaction data is enough
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18:01 < sipa> but it loses time information, change outputs, destination names, ...
18:02 < Eliel_> pretty much every wallet supports full private key export in some way, so you can tell change addresses apart from that.
18:03 < Eliel_> and users rarely store metadata in the wallet software itself. It's usually written in some spreadsheet somewhere, if at all.
18:06 < Eliel_> and if not... well, there's always the wallet UI. The worst case you get to type it out on the keyboard yourself.
18:08 < Eliel_> but come to think of it, my need for address/transaction index would greatly diminish if wallet software ubiquitously supported exporting the transaction list in a standard format.
18:11 < Eliel_> (a standard format that can actually be imported as well)
18:18 < Eliel_> I'm not aware of a single wallet that actually supports importing transactions like that.
18:19 < sipa> i'm not sure how that would work
18:19 < sipa> as interpreting a transaction is wallet specific
18:20 < sipa> (recognizing change, accounting inputs, ...)
18:21 < Eliel_> yes, the format would need to be annotated with data to allow for that.
18:21 < sipa> good luck :)
18:21 < sipa> different software doesn't even agree about what the concept of a wallet refers to
18:22 < Eliel_> I'll be happy as long as it refers to a collection of one or more addresses and a list of transactions associated with them.
18:24 < Eliel_> are there any examples of wallets that don't quite fit my description?
18:29 < sipa> the concept of addresses may be not as specific in things that support payment channels or multisig
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18:34 < Eliel_> payment channels you've got a point about, they can have transactions that will never be visible on the network. However, you can still express the bitcoin-network visible portions as a collection of addresses and transactions. That should hold for any multisig too, no?
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18:36 < Eliel_> but yes, looks like the format would need to be designed to be extensible.
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20:03 < xissburg> !tlast
20:03 < gribble> 885.6
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20:42 < adiabat> on the topic of standard export format for a utxo... I kindof wrote something along those lines
20:43 < adiabat> https://github.com/mit-dci/lit/blob/master/portxo/portxo.go#L36
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20:45 < adiabat> figured at some point I might try to make it into a BIP once it's stable; seems to be working OK for my use case so far (the lightning node giving utxos to an underlying wallet)
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20:50 < sipa_> bitcoin's rest interface has a binary format for utxos
20:51 < sipa_> which is by no meand documented or standard
20:53 < adiabat> right... for mine case I added a bit more
20:54 < adiabat> in the case of lightning, the lightning node side gives a utxo to the base wallet, and also says "here's a bip44 path, but also when you get to the end of the path, here's a scalar to add"
20:54 < adiabat> (modulo the curve N)
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--- Log closed Thu Jan 19 00:00:09 2017