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08:26 < instagibbs> Soon(TM)
08:27 < kanzure> hmph
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08:35 < JackH> can someone explain BIP9 in a bit more detail? There is no description on the BIP9 page in terms of what activation means, apart from signalling. Which means intent, but no "activation", or am I wrong?
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08:36 < JackH> and how this looks from a client perspective
08:36 < JackH> as a client, can only see intent of signalling, but how exactly do clients change to accept a new BIP when its in active state?
08:37 < JackH> apart from being consensus compatible and thus accept a new BIP implicitly
08:37 < kanzure> if-then clause, enable validation of new rules
08:37 < JackH> because old clients do not accept anything new, they are just backward compatible
08:38 < JackH> yes I understand that, but clients that are not upgraded accept the soft fork regardless, because the soft fork is by definition backward compatible
08:40 < JackH> it seems from reading about the states, that it is purely miners coming to agreement about the signalling in the block nVersion field, and clients accept it either as a soft-fork or do not accept it at all
08:41 < JackH> not accepting it, if its not backwards compatible, and accepting it, because their own client accepts it already
08:41 < sipa> not just miners
08:41 < sipa> it is not a softfork if (an economically relevant subset of) full nodes don't also activate
08:42 < JackH> So basically there is no activation
08:42 < sipa> ?
08:42 < JackH> a 0.12.1 node wont understand segwit regardless of its activation state, and a 0.13.1 node would understand it and apply the rules because it is already compatible with it?
08:42 < sipa> activation is local thing
08:42 < JackH> really?
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08:43 < sipa> a 0.13.1 node does not apply segwit rules before bip9 says it is active
08:43 < sipa> it behaves exactly like an old node beforehand
08:43 < JackH> so if I apply segwit locally, and a miner mines a segwit block, I assume pushes us out of the network?
08:44 < sipa> no, it's backward compatible
08:44 < sipa> if a miner creates a segwit-invalid block, and you have segwit activated, then yes, you will be forked off
08:44 < JackH> ah
08:44 < JackH> got it
08:44 < sipa> but that won't happen, as you only activate it after 95% of miners indicate they will enforce it
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08:45 < JackH> so something changes locally in my client after both lock-in and activation?
08:45 < sipa> the bip9 state is a property of a blockchain
08:46 < sipa> the choice about whether or not you require segwit rules on a block depends on its bip9 state... so indirectly it depends on the previous blocks
08:46 < kanzure> the new validation rules are enabled by activation conditions
08:47 < sipa> when 95% of all blocks in a 2016 retarget window indicate segwit support, then 2016 blocks later, the segwit rules get enforced
08:47 < sipa> the rest of the bip is just dealing with edge cases
08:48 < JackH> and my bip9 is in consensus with these parameters, which is why nothing actually happens locally, apart from triggering the lock-in and subsequently activation?
08:48 < kanzure> "why is why nothing actually happens locally" things do happen... your node decides to start using the new rules when performing validation.
08:48 < sipa> it is local in exactly the same was as the blockchain is a local thing
08:48 < sipa> every node in the network could have a different idea about what chain is the active one
08:49 < sipa> PoW just makes sure this disagreement does not remain for long
08:49 < sipa> maybe i shouldn't have said that bip9 states are local... they are just a property that derives from the chain
08:49 < sipa> so if two nodes (which both have segwit code) have the same idea about what the best chain is, they'll also have the same idea about what the bip9 state is
08:50 < sipa> in the same way as they'll have the same idea about what the difficulty is, or the height, or the utxo set, or ...
08:50 < JackH> Is it this?  vbavailable in the template Object
08:51 < JackH> that is a required key
08:51 < sipa> that lists the bip9 rules that the client knows about, and you may choose to signal support for
08:51 < sipa> as a miner
08:51 < JackH> ahh ok
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09:14 < JackH> another thing I wanted to ask, the new address types introduced in segwith, where can I find a description about them? kanzure maybe you know?
09:15 < sipa> JackH: i'm working on a writeup
09:15 < JackH> how many new ones are there? 3 right?
09:15 < kanzure> JackH: you could read about some encoding magic here https://bitcoincore.org/logs/2016-05-zurich-meeting-notes.html
09:15 < sipa> just one
09:15 < JackH> thx kanzure
09:16 < JackH> hmm, I remember clearly more than 1 was mentioned
09:16 < JackH> but I believe they were not able to be used yet (even when it activates)?
09:16 < instagibbs> rusty had a proposal, and of course bip142 which is no longer being pursued by original authors
09:16 < instagibbs> addresses just need wallet adoption
09:17 < sipa> JackH: the history is that bip142 was published at the same time as the rest of segwit, but since it perpetuated the problems with base58, and people misunderstood it to mean that segwit was not backward compatible (i.e. old wallets wouldn't be able to send to segwit wallets), it was withdrawn
09:18 < sipa> you can just use P2SH to send to segwit now (or when it activates, at least), and that should work in any wallet software created the past 3 years
09:18 < JackH> ah yes, there they are, in BIP142
09:19 < sipa> BIP142 is deferred
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10:13 < moli> BIP142 is implemented in lnd :) if you want to see it, help us test lnd
10:13 < sipa> :(
10:13 < moli> wut, sipa
10:13 < sipa> that will only make it harder to fix
10:14 < sipa> BIP142 is deferred because we don't want to see something like that get used
10:14 < sipa> but take the time to create a better standard
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10:14 < sipa> (which admittedly, has taken more time than it should have)
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10:26 < gmaxwell> someone should blank the bip.
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11:17 < JackH> this is the beauty of higher layers, they can go crazy doing anything without affecting base layer
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11:34 < moli> sipa, i'm pretty sure roasbeef can do the switcheroo in an afternoon when the time comes
11:35 < gmaxwell> moli: if it's just some backend thing it should be using raw scriptpubkeys.
11:36 < gmaxwell> if it's exposed to users it must more or less be supported forever.
11:40 < moli> gmaxwell, i'm not even sure if lnd will happen on mainnet, i think it needs segwit
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11:45 < kanzure> .title https://www.mail-archive.com/mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net/msg00024.html
11:45 < yoleaux> [Mimblewimble] Scripting observations and Lightning Network implementation
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--- Log closed Tue Jan 24 00:00:13 2017