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timeout: 255 seconds] 04:23 < Eliel_> Has anyone thought about a soft-fork with a "market share" based deactivation if it doesn't get enough use during a predefined test period? 04:24 < Eliel_> I suspect having soft-forks modeled like that might make it easier to get them activated. Afterwards it's the market's problem whether it stays active or deactivates. 04:26 < Eliel_> or perhaps even base the system on featuresets that are designed to turn off and revert to "anything goes" ruleset if their usage falls below a set threshold for long enough. 04:27 -!- mountaingoat [~mountaing@unaffiliated/mountaingoat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:27 < Eliel_> kind of a modular approach to supporting different features on a blockchain. 04:29 < Eliel_> The rhetoric of the type "the developers are forcing things on us" would lose it's punch when there's a market based decision mechanism involved. 04:34 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gavkjqljyaewaagj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:36 < Eliel_> Ideally, the activation/deactivation should be based on the total fees paid by transactions using the features rather than total use... But that sounds hairy to get the incentive structures working right. 04:37 -!- atgreen [~green@CPE10da438ecb59-CM00fc8d24cab0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:51 -!- mountaingoat [~mountaing@unaffiliated/mountaingoat] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:53 -!- waxwing [waxwing@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-mksnqzenolikolex] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:54 -!- PERSIAN [~PERSIAN@mtrlpq4709w-lp130-05-76-64-85-166.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:58 -!- quietbea1t [~quietbeas@72-48-102-129.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:58 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:58 -!- cluckj [~cluckj@70.15.150.221.res-cmts.eph2.ptd.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:58 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:59 -!- aguycalled [~aguycalle@37.120.37.13] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:59 -!- aguycalled [~aguycalle@2a02:2450:102d:b5:98be:74d8:5e48:ac3f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:00 -!- aguycalled [~aguycalle@2a02:2450:102d:b5:98be:74d8:5e48:ac3f] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:09 -!- mountaingoat [~mountaing@unaffiliated/mountaingoat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:14 -!- jcluck [~cluckj@70.15.150.221.res-cmts.eph2.ptd.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:16 -!- cluckj [~cluckj@70.15.150.221.res-cmts.eph2.ptd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:22 -!- jcluck is now known as cluckj 05:27 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@wsip-24-120-54-28.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:31 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:32 -!- fibonacci [uid136497@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fmtprbkbtlyiocjr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:32 -!- fibonacci is now known as Guest74880 05:33 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:52 -!- aguycalled [~aguycalle@2a02:2450:102d:b5:e52b:cae4:9db7:4075] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:57 -!- aguycalled [~aguycalle@2a02:2450:102d:b5:e52b:cae4:9db7:4075] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:07 < kanzure> iirc we do not actually have known fraud proofs for everything? https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-January/013515.html 06:07 < kanzure> also i thought there was a problem with fraud proof evidence withholding too 06:12 -!- jcluck [~cluckj@70.15.150.221.res-cmts.eph2.ptd.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:13 -!- cluckj [~cluckj@70.15.150.221.res-cmts.eph2.ptd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:20 -!- jcluck [~cluckj@70.15.150.221.res-cmts.eph2.ptd.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:43 -!- guardianJ [~javaserve@120.17.139.10] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:44 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:46 -!- aguycalled [~aguycalle@2a02:2450:102d:b5:e52b:cae4:9db7:4075] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:47 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:48 -!- guardianJ [~javaserve@120.17.139.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:52 -!- aguycalled [~aguycalle@2a02:2450:102d:b5:e52b:cae4:9db7:4075] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:57 -!- aguycalled [~aguycalle@2a02:2450:102d:b5:e52b:cae4:9db7:4075] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:57 -!- aguycalled [~aguycalle@2a02:2450:102d:b5:e52b:cae4:9db7:4075] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:57 -!- aguycalled [~aguycalle@2a02:2450:102d:b5:e52b:cae4:9db7:4075] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:59 -!- CrazyLoaf [uid67551@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bsnpbcuwsmvizmns] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 06:59 -!- aguycall_ [~aguycalle@2a02:2450:102d:b5:5403:5e6:58be:82de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:01 -!- kristofferR [~kristoffe@243.37-191-171.fiber.lynet.no] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:02 -!- aguycalled [~aguycalle@2a02:2450:102d:b5:e52b:cae4:9db7:4075] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:19 -!- pedrovian_ [~pedrovian@8.27.210.16] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:21 -!- pedrovian [~pedrovian@8.27.210.16] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:26 -!- alpalp [~alpalp@unaffiliated/alpalp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:34 -!- jtimon [~quassel@245.30.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:37 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:39 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@207pc74.sshunet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:39 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@207pc74.sshunet.nl] has quit [Changing host] 07:39 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:47 -!- JHistone [~JHistone@cpc102320-sgyl38-2-0-cust380.18-2.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:48 -!- aguycall_ [~aguycalle@2a02:2450:102d:b5:5403:5e6:58be:82de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:49 -!- aguycalled [~aguycalle@37.120.37.13] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:50 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@c-50-159-126-21.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:51 -!- alpalp [~alpalp@unaffiliated/alpalp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:57 -!- kristofferR [~kristoffe@243.37-191-171.fiber.lynet.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 07:57 -!- Guest74880 [uid136497@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fmtprbkbtlyiocjr] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 07:57 -!- Starduster [~SD@unaffiliated/starduster] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:58 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:07 -!- atgreen [~green@199.212.68.117] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:09 -!- alpalp [~alpalp@unaffiliated/alpalp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:28 -!- alpalp [~alpalp@unaffiliated/alpalp] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:30 -!- Davasny [~quassel@78.10.231.191] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:34 -!- roidster [~chatzilla@71-93-192-198.dhcp.whtr.ca.charter.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:43 -!- Kexkey_ [~kexkey@68.168.114.170] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:51 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@2002:329f:7e15:0:10b:65a2:baca:e17a] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:54 -!- atgreen [~green@199.212.68.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:55 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@2002:329f:7e15:0:10b:65a2:baca:e17a] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:58 -!- jtimon [~quassel@245.30.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:01 < bsm1175321> Eliel_: personally I wouldn't want to develop software that used features that might deactivate. Sunk cost. 09:03 < Eliel_> bsm1175321: it's a tradeoff of sorts. Somewhat easier to get features activated, but with the risk that it'll deactivate. 09:04 < Eliel_> of course, a lot depends on how sensibly the threshold is set for keeping the feature activated. 09:04 < bsm1175321> Just look at the usage of P2SH -- about 11%, 5 years after activation. 09:05 < bsm1175321> If it had the possibility to deactivate, usage would be ~1% at best, I would guess. 09:05 < bsm1175321> http://p2sh.info/dashboard/db/home-dashboard 09:07 < Eliel_> P2SH usage is a good example point to use to determine sensible thresholds. 09:07 < Eliel_> as well as timescales 09:08 -!- JHistone [~JHistone@cpc102320-sgyl38-2-0-cust380.18-2.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:08 < bsm1175321> Usage of the CSV transaction types would be useful too, though they're less than a year old, so not much statistics. 09:08 < bsm1175321> Also I think few "regular users" would use them anyway. 09:09 < Eliel_> I don't that'd be a problem in practice for any feature that actually manages to get activated. 09:09 < belcher> p2sh is depressed by the fact that p2pkh works perfectly fine for most uses 09:09 < bsm1175321> I'd say the threshold for dectivation should be extremely low, for instance < 1% usage after 5 years. 09:09 < belcher> CSV can only really be used for escrow that times out and payment channels 09:10 < Eliel_> also, p2sh might see more use if it was in danger of deactivating due to underuse. 09:10 < bsm1175321> And lots of soft forks may be very valuable, but there would be no reason to have a huge number of transactions using the new feature (like CSV) 09:10 < belcher> doesnt 'deactivation' require a hard fork, if people can pull off a hard fork successfully they can steal p2pkh utxos too 09:10 < bsm1175321> Yes, deactivation is a hard fork. 09:10 < Eliel_> belcher: it's not a hard fork if it's already part of the consensus rules. 09:11 < bsm1175321> It's a hard fork because previously valid transactions become invalid. 09:11 < belcher> 'deactivation' is part of the rules? 09:11 < Eliel_> bsm1175321: not invalid, the special rules just stop being enforced. 09:11 < Eliel_> ie, they become anyone can pay 09:11 < bsm1175321> It's a hard fork for anyone who isn't running a node with the deactivation logic... 09:11 < Eliel_> bsm1175321: that's the point, you'd design it so everyone is running such a node 09:12 < belcher> what are you talking about.. this is no different from a hard fork 09:12 < belcher> if you can make everyone run software that does something fancy then you can pull off a hard fork 09:12 < Eliel_> belcher: this is soft-fork category. 09:12 < belcher> right but since p2sh and CSV have been activated now, undoing them requires a hard fork 09:13 < Eliel_> belcher: yes, because they didn't come with deactivation logic built in. 09:13 < Eliel_> if it's there from the start, it's no fork at all 09:14 < belcher> i doubt any soft fork will come with deactivation logic built in, it seems to defeat the point 09:15 < Eliel_> belcher: I think of it as garbage collection routine. 09:15 < Eliel_> the feature goes in, does it's thing, is no longer needed and gets garbage collected. 09:16 < Eliel_> of course, the timescales could be decades or centuries. 09:17 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:22 < Eliel_> belcher: anyway, the point is that the deactivation logic leaves the door open to remove the feature someday without a hard fork when it really is no longer needed. For example, when a new version has been released. It allows the network to garbage collect legacy cruft eventually. 09:23 < belcher> its an interesting idea but i cant think of a situation when it would be used; p2sh, csv and segwit would never be deactivated 09:23 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:24 < Eliel_> belcher: true, but I expect we'll start to see more and more of improvements that really might be deactivated sometime. 09:25 < Eliel_> belcher: plus, it might help make it more palatable politically. It'd be less of "the core developers are imposing this thing on us" since there's an obvious market mechanism involved in keeping the thing going. 09:25 < belcher> it would also mean the feature probably never gets used if it could disappear one day 09:26 < Eliel_> only if people think it's a realistic risk and/or the deactivation process is badly designed. 09:27 < Eliel_> for example, the deactivation process could be designed to do something intelligent to all the remaining outputs about to become "anyone can spend" through the deactivation. 09:29 < Eliel_> Although, if there's sufficient lead time, I expect users would collect their coins before that. 09:30 < belcher> is the only benefit that political one? "core devs not imposing" which is untrue because core devs cant impose anything 09:30 < Eliel_> long term garbage collection is the real benefit. 09:31 < belcher> garbage collection is about reusing memory, soft forks dont use a resource like memory 09:31 -!- kristofferR [~kristoffe@243.37-191-171.fiber.lynet.no] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:31 < Eliel_> consensus code complexity doesn't count as using memory? 09:32 < belcher> your idea wouldnt reduce complexity, since all the soft fork activation and deactivation code still has to be around forever 09:33 < belcher> not to mention complexity isnt really a measurable thing like RAM 09:33 -!- quietbeast [~quietbeas@72-48-102-129.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:33 < Eliel_> not actually, if it's designed as soft-fork to begin with, you can just throw it out after deactivation. 09:38 -!- quietbeast [~quietbeas@72-48-102-129.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:38 < Eliel_> this is perhaps easiest to see if you imagine the situation from the perspective of someone who never upgraded to a node that supported the deactivated soft-fork in the first place. He won't notice any problems. Only that a weird transaction type stops being used. 09:39 < moli> what softfork has been deactivated or going to be deactivated? 09:39 < Eliel_> moli: theoretical 09:39 < moli> ah 09:46 -!- kristofferR [~kristoffe@243.37-191-171.fiber.lynet.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 09:47 -!- kristofferR [~kristoffe@243.37-191-171.fiber.lynet.no] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:49 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:50 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:51 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:51 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:53 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:53 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:54 -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@91.181.8.32] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:55 -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@91.181.8.32] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:02 -!- aguycalled [~aguycalle@37.120.37.13] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:02 -!- aguycalled [~aguycalle@2a02:2450:102d:b5:5403:5e6:58be:82de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:04 -!- aguycall_ [~aguycalle@2a02:2450:102d:b5:4840:5869:a66a:b2f6] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:06 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:08 -!- aguycalled [~aguycalle@2a02:2450:102d:b5:5403:5e6:58be:82de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:08 -!- alpalp [~alpalp@unaffiliated/alpalp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:14 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@haskell/developer/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz...] 13:32 < instagibbs> Ma_De, the channel is logged, which is how many people read it https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-wizards/ 13:38 -!- LeMiner [LeMiner@unaffiliated/leminer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:38 -!- atgreen [~green@CPE10da438ecb59-CM00fc8d24cab0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:39 -!- CrazyLoaf [uid67551@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-znueeopgnmopaeeb] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 13:45 -!- itsme_ [~textual@x4d04eee2.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:46 -!- itsme__ [~textual@46.166.164.87] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:49 -!- itsme__ [~textual@46.166.164.87] has quit [Client Quit] 13:49 -!- itsme_ [~textual@x4d04eee2.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:50 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:59 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:59 -!- Pr0t3us 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quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 18:38 -!- Pr0t3us [~Pr0t3us@unaffiliated/pr0t3us] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:42 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@2002:329f:7e15:0:2499:32e4:6b09:50ff] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:48 -!- NoBoD [uid136497@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-eisqbjnjnihutlte] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:48 -!- NoBoD is now known as Guest65463 18:49 -!- Guest65463 is now known as Fibonacci 18:52 -!- jtimon [~quassel@245.30.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:03 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gavkjqljyaewaagj] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 19:09 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:16 -!- Ma_De [dce39512@gateway/web/freenode/ip.220.227.149.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:28 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@2605:6000:1019:4099:743e:b2ba:c97f:8c79] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:30 -!- waxwing [~waxwing@185.65.132.137] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:50 -!- Aranjedeath [~Aranjedea@unaffiliated/aranjedeath] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:53 -!- itsme_ [~textual@46.166.164.87] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 20:01 -!- CrazyLoaf [uid67551@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-oqbavbiuncopwini] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:04 -!- pro [~pro@unaffiliated/pro] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:05 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:09 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:29 < mryandao> if you're going to deprecate an existing soft-fork, wouldn't you just roll out another soft-fork which deprecates the previous soft-fork? 20:31 < sipa> no, that would be a hard fork 20:31 < sipa> as old clients which now about the softfork but not about its deprecation would keep enforcing the rule 20:36 -!- alpalp [~alpalp@unaffiliated/alpalp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:00 -!- legogris [~legogris@128.199.205.238] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:00 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