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12:02 < kanzure> could it be shown that there's a game where you can withhold information but withholding cannot cause (some types of?) partitioning?
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12:04 < kanzure> alternatively, i think there could be a very high latency interactive protocol where you have to collect signatures from everyone, and if you don't then you could backoff of the total data size for the next round, as an anti-dos rule.
12:05 < gmaxwell> if I understand what you're asking ... the coding based anti-witholding scheme I came up has that property but only really works if people get their data from one source.
12:06 < kanzure> context is mostly fraud proofs (or validity challenges) and the withholding problems when you have really large blocks (why would someone voluntarily tell you that they are causing inflation?)
12:06 < gmaxwell> Which is say an attacker wants to hide one transaction in a block. And many clients will query the attacker for a random subset of transactions.  The attacker will just fail to respond to queries for the bad data.
12:07 < gmaxwell> The obvious countereasure is for clients to share with each other when they fail, but it doesn't clearly work because they can't prove they failed so the attacker could flood clients with fake failed share reports, causing them to just go fetch the data the attacker wants them to fetch.
12:07 < kanzure> how do you show the failure to respond is not just DoS or something?
12:07 < kanzure> right ok.
12:08 < gmaxwell> What I suggested is that the protocol have the participants transmit the block data using a locally decodable code.  So you randomly decide to check transactions x,y,z   and then request data that will let you decode x,y,z  but with some overhead from your error coding.
12:08 < kanzure> insert various handwaving about noninteractive querying some snark proof... given magical snark prover..
12:09 < gmaxwell> This can be constructed so that the attacker can only respond to ~= 1blocksize worth of queries IN TOTAL.  or else risk that the clients can combine the data they recieved in order to recover the censored parts.
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12:11 < kanzure> what happens with malicious clients that don't share with other clients?
12:11 < gmaxwell> they just don't count in the 1 blocksize worth.
12:11 < gmaxwell> To be pedantic, the attacker cannot send more than $SIZE data to any collaborating set of honest clients.
12:11 < gmaxwell> or else they can recover the whole thing.
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12:16 < gmaxwell> I think the coding based anti-censorship also combined well with past-miner signaling ... let every block commit to an additional public key.  Now when you get a block you allow any of the last 100 blocks to send you a message that says "You must check transaction X,Y". If you get one of those messages, you will reject the block until you can check X,Y.
12:17 < gmaxwell> the set of keys doesn't need to be limited to past miners, the only reason to restrict these hints is to constrain DOS attacks... so you could have your list of keys include a small random collection of whatever.  Differences in people's advice acceptance sets can only cause a network split in the presence of block sources hiding transaction data.
12:18 < kanzure> malicious clients could request lots of proofs, block signer ends up getting DoSed to death unable to transfer proofs to honest flood-network clients. ya?
12:18 < gmaxwell> yea, but thats always true... I could keep your busy sending blocks to me so they don't send them to other people.
12:20 < gmaxwell> if the coded version of the block were commited in the block, then anyone with a full copy of the whole thing could respond to coded block requests.  But it would be computationally expensive (thus latent) to compute all the queries in advance, unfortunately.  Maybe less of a concern with pre-consensus.
12:23 < gmaxwell> In any case the two ideas (shared 'asks') and coded blocks are complementary.  The coding amplifies censorship so that any censorship requires to to reject many queries or risk the censorship failing.  The requests let honest users force a small set of additional queries across the network under penalty of rejecting the block.   (Given a non-partitioning assumption, of course)
12:23 < kanzure> "causing them to just go fetch the data the attacker wants them to fetch"  buuut then they will fetch the data and be able to show the malicious activity (inflation or whatever)... if the attacker doesn't provide the data, the scheme doesn't work.
12:24 < gmaxwell> kanzure: I suppose I've been unclear. In that sentence I was intentionally describing something that doesn't work.
12:25 < kanzure> oh i see hwat you mean re: coding, you really did mean "~1MB worth of queries in total", because otherwise they are responding with more data than should be possible
12:26 < gmaxwell> If we random sample, attacker may deny my samples that would hit gold. Bummer. But I could tell everyone else to also sample that location and if they can't get it, reject the block. Hurray.  Except that can just be DOS attackked bummer (attacker keeps you busy fetching things he will serve).
12:26 < gmaxwell> So I suggest two techniques:
12:27 < kanzure> i'm not sure i understand when clients can safely say the block seems safe.   they seem to need consensus over all the query-responses?
12:27 < gmaxwell> (1) with coding we can make it so that if the block has 100 parts, and one bad part, than he can only respond to ~100 total queries for any parts without revealing the bad part.
12:28 < gmaxwell> (2) we give prior block authors and other semi-honest parties the ability to tell every client to make one extra query each,  which if they get denied they'll reject the block (just as they do for their own queries).   This prevents the dos attack, because it bounds the number of additional queries.
12:29 < gmaxwell> The (2) alone would be enough except for an attacker could play a game where they censor a lot of non-invalid data... just to force the semi-honest beacons to blow their queries extracting that from them.
12:30 < gmaxwell> (1) amplifies censorship, so you can't share much data at all without showing an inconsistency OR revealing the censored data.
12:30 < kanzure> not sure i understand the semi-honest party requirement, is this a set of known 'beacon' nodes? or are they random participants
12:31 < gmaxwell> kanzure: you want them to be relatively consistent between participants because IF there is censorship, differences in the set might result in some clients accepting a block and others rejecting it. Though they do not have to be absolutely consistent.
12:33 < gmaxwell> Basically for a given amount of coding amplification, you would need a given amount of additional forced queries to either prove censorship or prove dishonesty to everyone.   So your set needs to include enough honest parties that would create the right demands. It can include additional attacker controlled parties, all they do is waste a bit of bandwidth.
12:35 < kanzure> ok, and on the flooding network where clients send proofs to each other, you sit there passing around the proofs and wait until you have seen sufficient evidence (which is =~ the block size plus some overhead maybe)?   or is it enough to wait to hear about possible dishonesty, without checking/storing the passing proofs.   it seems like you need to be able to detect conflicts from the coding...
12:35 < kanzure> ... scheme(?), so you do have to store something?
12:36 < gmaxwell> you have to be able to detect coding conflicts, which I believe requires a small constant multiple of a block size worth of storage.
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12:38 < kanzure> is pruning okay here? i mean, if it's more storage space then you might as well insist that the block signer/miner transmit the actual large block contents anyway.
12:39 < kanzure> (pruning after a round, i guess)
12:39 < gmaxwell> well you only need that for a block you're considering rejecting.. so presumably just a small number of blocks at the tip worth.
12:39 < gmaxwell> at worst.
12:39 < gmaxwell> because either you'll learn enough to reject it in 10 minutes or you won't.
12:40 < kanzure> hrm i don't know why i asked that. storage isn't the concern, it's total bandwidth per round heh.
12:41 < gmaxwell> yea.
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12:44 < gmaxwell> In any case I think PT is far too dismissive... Another possible solution to the censorship problem is that you simply let a configured semi-honest party (e.g. the developers of your software) tell you additional places to sample. They could at most make you transfer a whole block every time (as if they wrote the software to just do that)... not much of an attack vector. ... as if you find them w
12:44 < gmaxwell> asting your bandwidth you'd just replace them with another one.
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12:45 < gmaxwell> and it would immediately boost the security to an attack requiring a majority hashpower and control over the keys that the target clients listen to.
12:46 < kanzure> maybe with some public auditing/verification a centralized coordination (for assigning the sharded asks) wouldn't be so bad.
12:47 < kanzure> that footprint has to be realllly tiny
12:47 < kanzure> in terms of features.
12:50 < kanzure> say there are four or five different groups assigning the shards in that manner, to reduce total bandwidth for their clients.    is there a failure mode where picking poor shards would cause clients to fail to identify block fraud?   if they are on a single global flood network (in addition to the sharded ask coordination thing), then this seems to not be a failure mode.
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12:52 < kanzure> it's too bad that low bandwidth nodes need to be forced to a totally different security model
12:53 < gmaxwell> please 'shards' make little sense; that kind of buzzardry makes me want to ragequit this channel. You cannot tidly divide the flow of information in the bitcoin system. Transactions gather random txouts.
12:53 < kanzure> ah i thought you typed "sharded" above (you had "shared"), nevermind my shards
12:53 < kanzure> *typoed
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--- Log closed Thu Feb 02 00:00:22 2017