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[~NewLibert@64.134.221.4] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:13 < uiuc-slack> yes, that's a cool research topic! 09:20 < kanzure> if you had infinitely small minimum utxo amounts, you could do mining on any node, with fractional payouts 09:20 < kanzure> and you could even mix in some requirement about knowing the utxo set 09:25 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:27 -!- Giszmo [~leo@ip-198-233.219.201.nextelmovil.cl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:29 -!- marcoagner [~marcoagne@177.41.205.31] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:39 -!- Giszmo [~leo@ip-198-233.219.201.nextelmovil.cl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:46 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:55 -!- sanket1729_ [7317c616@gateway/web/freenode/ip.115.23.198.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:59 -!- sanket1729 [~androirc@39.7.15.66] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:00 -!- MaxSan [~one@172.25.198.146.dyn.plus.net] has joined 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ZZZzzz...] 10:53 -!- molz_ [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:54 -!- lclc [~lclc@unaffiliated/lclc] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:56 -!- mol [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:09 -!- se3000 [~textual@135.84.167.2] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:12 -!- markus-k [~markus@server01.comtime-it.eu] has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.6.1 - http://znc.in] 11:14 -!- markus-k [~markus@server01.comtime-it.eu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:15 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:23 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:30 -!- Guest25930 is now known as fibinacci 11:30 -!- fibinacci is now known as fibonacci 11:36 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:42 -!- EvilHero_ [~EvilHero@208.77.77.34] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:44 -!- Davasny [~quassel@78.10.231.191] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:44 < fluffypony> if anyone's interested, we're designing a scheme for Monero sub-addresses (almost like HD wallets) so that users don't have to use their main address with ShapeShift, for eg., to avoid third-party linkage 11:44 < fluffypony> https://github.com/monero-project/research-lab/issues/7 11:44 < fluffypony> WIP 11:44 < fluffypony> input / comments very welcome 11:46 < gmaxwell> fluffypony: have you considered an address type for "precomputed DH" e.g. a single use address where you do the DH math and then give the address to someone to pay? 11:46 < gmaxwell> this would avoid inflating the scanning costs. 11:47 < fluffypony> as in the recipient precomputes the DHKE shared secret and just gives that to the sender? 11:47 < gmaxwell> yep. 11:48 < gmaxwell> single-use address. 11:48 < fluffypony> I have no idea how nobody's thought of that 11:48 < fluffypony> that makes total sense 11:49 * fluffypony feels noobish now 11:49 < gmaxwell> I've mentioned it here before in the context of stealth addresses and the C**nB*ase problem. (steal address gives the person who would block you even more tracing ability). 11:49 < gmaxwell> For monero it's even better because you already forbid address reuse (right?)... 11:50 < gmaxwell> er s/steal/stealth/ 11:50 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:50 < fluffypony> yes 11:51 < gmaxwell> I don't think it replaces the ability to have seperate keys in a wallet.. you might not want to use single use addresses for everything. 11:52 < fluffypony> agreed - a regular address can just be given out 11:52 < fluffypony> a single-use address would have this added step (paste the sender's address in, compute, then send this to the sender) 11:52 < fluffypony> which is counter-intuitive to people more familiar with the Bitcoin, PayPal, etc. way of doing things 11:53 < gmaxwell> you can actually generate the whole thing, I think. e.g. just pick a random number, and tell it to the sender. 11:54 < gmaxwell> I'm currently fuzzy on the monero schemes. but basically you compute a random number, the shared secret, give the sender the kG and the output address they should pay. 11:54 < gmaxwell> and they can stuff it in their transaction and just sign it. 11:55 -!- se3000 [~textual@135.84.167.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:56 -!- EvilHero_ is now known as Datalova 11:56 < gmaxwell> if monero doesn't already guarentee that you can't pay to the same output pubkey twice then an extra check will be needed for safty. 11:56 < fluffypony> "Alice generates a random r ? [1,l-1] and computes a one-time public key P = Hs(rA)G+B. 11:56 < fluffypony> Alice uses P as a destination key for the output and also packs value R = rG (as a part of the Diffie-Hellman exchange) somewhere into the transaction." 11:56 < fluffypony> A and B are the view and spend keys 11:57 < fluffypony> and G is a base point 11:57 < gmaxwell> right so payee would do all of that and send R and P in the address. 11:58 < othe> [02:56:05] if monero doesn't already guarentee that you can't pay to the same output pubkey twice then an extra check will be needed for safty. --- it doesnt 11:58 < fluffypony> yeah, but then you can't prevent re-use 11:58 < gmaxwell> Then payer would check to see if P has been paid to in the past, and reject if it has.. (otherwise coins get burned) 11:59 < gmaxwell> if the user happens to give the same address to two payers at the same time, then coins get burned. :( I would suggest relay policy at least to reduce that risk. 11:59 < gmaxwell> E.g. don't let two outputs to the same P ... at least 'recently'. 11:59 < gmaxwell> since they'll have the same image thus only one will be spendable. 12:00 * fluffypony mulls over in his mind 12:01 < gmaxwell> to be clear, I propose payer check the chain for reuse, and reject the chain. And I propose nodes and esp miners watch for recent reuse and reject to reduce the risk that the user concurrenty gives the same address to two payers. You could also fork it out but it's an increase in validation cost. (an extra database lookup) 12:01 < gmaxwell> er and reject the ADDRESS! not chain. 12:04 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:05 < gmaxwell> I expect that for these use cases the use is single, adding a new chain to scan forever to each single use address sucks. 12:08 < fluffypony> yeah, so maybe increased scanning overhead is net-better than that 12:10 < gmaxwell> hm? I am saying that if you create a new view/spend keypair for each single use application, you increase scanning cost O(N) which sucks; instead you can precompute and remain O(1) for scanning, but take on costs/risks related to reuse. 12:11 < gmaxwell> you could mitigate reuse risk with a 2-phase protocol. (address bakes in some kind of payer nonce) but that breaks workflow. Or by hardening wallets and miners against double payment. 12:12 < gmaxwell> Or even by softforking out doublepayment (validation cost increase) 12:12 < gmaxwell> Or semi-softforking it out, e.g. "no duplicate of an address payed to in the last n blocks" 12:13 < gmaxwell> FWIW, I've contemplated that for bitcoin. e.g. a pubkey type defined to be single payment which is deduplicated over a limited horizon by consensus and over forever by policy. 12:14 -!- Guest30 [~textual@75-165-38-182.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 12:15 -!- Guest30 [~textual@75-165-38-182.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:15 -!- Guest30 [~textual@75-165-38-182.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:17 -!- reBrain [~quassel@unaffiliated/rebrain] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:17 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:21 -!- Giszmo [~leo@ip-106-233.219.201.nextelmovil.cl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:23 -!- Datalova [~EvilHero@208.77.77.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:34 -!- lclc [~lclc@unaffiliated/lclc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:43 -!- Giszmo [~leo@ip-106-233.219.201.nextelmovil.cl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:48 -!- Seedster [~seedster@189.173.81.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:01 -!- Giszmo [~leo@ip-106-233.219.201.nextelmovil.cl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:02 -!- baarvader [~baarvader@ip545302a9.speed.planet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:33 -!- Davasny [~quassel@78.10.231.191] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:39 -!- lclc [~lclc@unaffiliated/lclc] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:41 -!- reBrain [~quassel@unaffiliated/rebrain] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:41 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:05 -!- marcoagner [~marcoagne@177.41.205.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:08 -!- marcoagner [~marcoagne@177.41.205.31] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:14 -!- CrazyLoaf [uid67551@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-klqjuippfhdurams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:38 < mryandao> i noticed in the bitcointalk forums there's been discussion about "fork insurance", has there been any research on this? 14:39 < Taek> mryandao: can you expand a bit more? What is fork insurance? 14:40 < kanzure> it's probably some off-chain actual insurance contract.... 14:40 < mryandao> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99631.0 14:41 < mryandao> some deterministic guarantee that enables a recipient to receive a promised sum 14:41 < kanzure> that's not about hard-forks 14:41 < mryandao> no, its not about hard-forks 14:50 -!- droark [~droark@c-24-22-123-27.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Later.] 14:52 -!- airbreather [~airbreath@d149-67-99-43.nap.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:56 -!- atgreen [~green@CPE10da438ecb59-CM00fc8d24cab0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:56 -!- atgreen [~green@CPE10da438ecb59-CM00fc8d24cab0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:02 -!- tromp__ [~tromp@ool-944bc34f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:02 -!- tromp__ [~tromp@ool-944bc34f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:03 -!- tromp 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