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15:32 < Taek> Do people in this channel often consider altcoins as a method for scalability? Most altcoins have transaction fees that are very much below the transaction fees of Bitcoin
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15:32 < luke-jr> speaking for myself, no.
15:32 < Taek> and, while the security margins are definitely lower, if you are placing $200 into an altcoin for small transactions, is it really a big deal?
15:32 < kanzure> altcoins inherit the same problems
15:32 < kanzure> and/or create new problems for themselves
15:33 < Taek> kanzure: sure, but if your altcoin of choice is different from my altcoin of choice, we've basically expanded the chain substantially
15:33 < Taek> *
15:33 < kanzure> and for altcoins that have different security models, it's already known that different security models can be much more highly scalable than bitcoin
15:33 < Taek> *I am assuming there's an easy way to do cross chain payments. Right now  you'd need to use an exchange like shapeshift
15:33 < kanzure> insert snappy comment about DMT here
15:35 < Taek> luke-jr: you would be opposed to using a non-Bitcoin currency to make your small payments?
15:36 < Taek> let's even assume that the software is a full clone of Bitcoin, but with a different PoW algorithm + genesis block, fewer users, lower fees.
15:37 < Taek> and maybe a smaller max blocksize, since the assumption is that it would live alongside Bitcoin as a method for cheaply making transactions which don't require as much security
15:38 < Taek> I guess the full assumption is that there would be many such chains
15:38 < Taek> and each person would be on 1-2 of them
15:39 < Taek> and this way you could get "on-chain" scalability
15:40 < Taek> To trade with eachother, you would use something like cross-chain lightning
15:40 < Taek> going through nodes that are on both chains
15:40 < Taek> (sender's preferred chain and receiver's preferred chain)
15:40 < midnightmagic> not the best place to be talking about that, really.
15:41 < kanzure> cross-chain lightning was already proposed quite a while ago
15:41 < gmaxwell> Taek: I consider them less of a scalability tool than microtransaction services. Two primary reasons: you take exchange rate risk which is less predictable than fraud by a microtransaction server, and the other is that they're generally subject to the same scalablity problems as Bitcoin more or less.  Same reason I generally say that sidechains aren't themselves much of a scalablity tool (even th
15:41 < gmaxwell> ough they eliminate the exchange rate risk).
15:41 < kanzure> Taek: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-September/010909.html
15:42 < gmaxwell> One argument that they (both altcoins and potentially sidechains) are a scalablity tool is that they can hit different points of the scale vs decenteralization trade-off.
15:42 < gmaxwell> E.g. you could exchange into insecure coin for small payments, but keep savings in Bitcoin.
15:43 < gmaxwell> But I'm not very convinced by that argument, since if you're willing to accept insecure coin, you'd probably be happy with a microtransaction server which could have a more clear security model AND better scalability.
15:43 < Taek> yes, that's exactly the advantage I'm proposing - they allow you make a tradeoff further along on the security/usability gradient
15:43 < Taek> if you don't require full Bitcoin-grade security, you should not need to pay full Bitcoin-grade fees
15:43 < kanzure> yes, mostly it's a slippery slope to off-chain centralization land (--- which isn't a bad thing necessarily, some users have different preferences for their money)
15:44 < kanzure> there's not much of a gradient on the altcoin side though
15:45 < gmaxwell> Taek: right but part of the problem is "security risk distribution".  Blockchains have a generally unfavorable risk spectrum.  I'm not sure that there really is such a thing as a kind of secure blockchain.  There are secure blockchains and blockchains that are insecure but you don't know it yet.   Same goes for things like microtransaction servers, but with things like remote attest and provable
15:45 < gmaxwell> solvency I think the risks of something like that are easier to measure than a blockchain's risk.. So if your goal is only kinda-secure a blockchain may not be the best tool.  But I guess I would say that I wouldn't argue much with someone who disagreed with me on this point.
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15:51 < Taek> You can measure the amount of work burying a given transaction, surely that counts for something. Even if a 51% attack is only a small bribe away re-mining the chain at all had a measurable cost
15:51 < Taek> *has
15:52 < Taek> I'm not sure what else you might mean by "not secure but you don't know it", I can only think of the 51% attack right now, given the same codebase that is
16:00 < gmaxwell> consider all the fringe altcoins out there, most of them are still 'working' fine, and yet most of them if I felt like it I could go blow up in one way or another given a couple hours... be it via overpowering reorgs, or sybil attacks partioning the hashpower, or exploiting consensus bugs...
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16:08 < Taek> I would agree that most altcoins out there are very vulnerable. But I would also point to departures from the Bitcoin codebase as the source of most of those vulnerabilities.
16:12 < Taek> Hmm, well I would also assert that the hashrate needs to hit a minimum threshold as well.
16:12 < Taek> But I would propose e
16:12 < Taek> *e.g. Dogecoin as having met that minimum (other issues aside)
16:13 < gmaxwell> chainforks are racing, and if miners are rational, they'll move between chain forks (even whole systems) based on where they think the greatest fee income is... if your chain stops advancing the security falls away, even in the past.
16:14 < gmaxwell> dogecoins hashrate is mostly litecoin, the marginal returns for mining dogecoin are tiny, if we imagine perfectly rational miners with sufficient automation... they'd all start mining some dodge coin fork if it were incentivized with a trivial amount of fees..
16:14 < gmaxwell> (in practice this isn't currently the case due to a mixture of altruism and lazyness in writing the optimal mining software)
16:14 < Taek> Oh I thought they had incompatible pow
16:15 < gmaxwell> no, unless it changed again it's MM with litecoin.
16:15 < Eliel> Taek: it's not PoW compatibility but rather if your mining hardware can do both or not.
16:16 < Eliel> Bitcoin miners are pretty much stuck with Bitcoin or Namecoin (if that's still alive).
16:16 < Taek> Eliel: agreed on that point. Except for ethereum (being the big dog of the GPU mined coins) any GPU altcoin I think has marginal security at best
16:18 < Eliel> Are there any coins where they actually managed to keep it so CPU is the best tool for mining?
16:18 < mryandao> none
16:19 < Taek> Not that I know of, for any top-100 coin a superior GPU implementation is usually out within a week
16:19 < Taek> Often closed-source at that
16:23 < Eliel> Taek: do you think any coin has an algorithm that wouldn't eventually be overrun by ASIC hardware if the coin became valuable enough?
16:24 < Taek> Ethereum, because there's the very real risk that they'd hardfork your investment to nothing.
16:24 < mryandao> ^ lol
16:24 < Taek> But that's not an algorithmic defense
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16:25 < Eliel> erm... yes, not an algorithmic defense. Which means that if someone does it, they do it stealthily.
16:25 < Eliel> ... which is a prospect that I don't especially like.
16:25 < Taek> I personally think there will be ascis for all sufficiently valuable algorithms, even memory based ones. But that's more a high level thought than one based on knowledge of how to build a fast/cheap memory based asic
16:26 < Taek> (and I include the cuckoo cycle in that, but only because I expect that given enough potential return someone would find a way to hardware optimize the problem)
16:27 < Taek> It's possible that you could write a proof that any hardware optimization for a particular algorithm would generalize to commodity cpus
16:34 < gmaxwell> I think it's likely not actually possible to do that, you would have to use every transistor and IO pin of the cpu equally. and even if you do, someone can make an optimized version that leaves out part of the cpu then skips nonces that would hit it.  what if every run uses every part? well you unroll the cpu, pipeline it, and leave out the parts that aren't used...
16:35 < gmaxwell> and I think lots of the IO parts of a cpu are wired up to things that you can't usefully use in a POW.
16:35 < gmaxwell> So if nothing else you can optimize by removing those.
16:37 < Taek> And even then you only bring back the botnet vs. mining pool tradeoff
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23:54 < Jeremy_Rand[m]> Eliel: Namecoin is still alive and developed, although I admit we've been neglecting the public engagement as of late, so it's totally excusable that you weren't sure.
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--- Log closed Sun Feb 12 00:00:31 2017