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07:02 < spudowiar> gmaxwell: Sorry if I shouldn't ask here, but I didn't want to PM you. Why did you disappear from #bitcoin earlier today?
07:04 < spudowiar> !m everyone
07:04 < [d__d]> You're doing good work, everyone!
07:04 < gribble> Error: "m" is not a valid command.
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10:24 < Taek> I have a hard time believing that Lumio is the first place such an idea has appeared
10:25 < Taek> kanzure: do you of any early posts/discussion of doing merged mining where the merged chain cannot be reorg'd unless the parent chain is also reorg'd?
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10:27 < Taek> Jeremy_Rand[m]: have you considered what a hardfork like a BU / Bitcoin split could do? If they tradeoff having the most hashrate, any merged chains would be subject to a lot of chaos.
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10:28 < kanzure> dunno, sorry
10:29 < Taek> I don't really remember it being discussed either, but it seems pretty obvious. Surprised it's never come up before
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10:33 < kanzure> just because i don't have an immediate reference..? yeesh
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11:02 < Taek> heh, perhaps I give you too much credit :P
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11:24 < Jeremy_Rand[m]> Taek: I did consider the issue of a non-Bitcoin blockchain overtaking Bitcoin as the dominant chain, which seems similar to your BU / Bitcoin split scenario.  It is an issue, but my intuition is that it's still more expensive to attack under most circumstances than Namecoin's existing merged mining.
11:24 < Jeremy_Rand[m]> Taek: and yeah, the concept seems obvious enough that I'd be very surprised if it hasn't been discussed long ago
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11:32 < Taek> yeah I guess the existing merged mining does not set the bar very high
11:33 < Taek> hmm, I wonder if you could use braids to pull work from both chains.
11:35 < Taek> hmm I might just be really tired, but is such a scheme actually workable?
11:35 < Taek> don't you need the Bitcoin chain to commit to the namecoin chain?
11:36 < Jeremy_Rand[m]> Taek: yeah, Namecoin blocks are committed to by the Bitcoin coinbase tx
11:36 < Taek> Jeremy_Rand[m]: is the idea that the child chain could only reorg if the parent chain also reorgs?
11:37 < Taek> what's to stop the bitcoin coinbase tx from committing to a block that does not exist?
11:37 < Taek> and if it does, how do you work around that?
11:37 < Jeremy_Rand[m]> It's unclear to be exactly how a braid system would work for this, but I'm not familiar enough with the braid proposals to really evaluate the idea properly
11:37 < Jeremy_Rand[m]> s/to be/to me
11:40 < Jeremy_Rand[m]> Taek: the idea I had in my head is that the following rules are followed in order to decide what child chain is correct: (1) discard any child chains that don't follow the child validation rules; (2) if a fork remains in the child chain, choose the subset which are committed to in the earliest height of the parent chain; (3) if a fork remains in the child chain, then the most work in the child chain wins
11:41 < Taek> ok. So I think this is a valid attack:
11:41 < Jeremy_Rand[m]> So if the parent chain has a block that commits to a child block that doesn't exist, then that just means that that particular parent block isn't used to decide step 2
11:41 < Taek> 1. create a real, valid block that exists, and commit to it in the parent chain
11:42 < Taek> 2. withhold that block until some fork is pretty long
11:42 < Taek> 3. reveal the block and get a bunch of free double spends
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11:43 < Jeremy_Rand[m]> Taek: hmm, yes, I think you're right that that's a valid attack.  Not sure exactly how that can be protected against, or if it's actually possible to do so.
11:43 < Taek> that's probably why there's not much literature around it
11:43 < Taek> I think treechains have a similar problem
11:45 < Taek> and iirc one of the solutions presented was that you could work around a withheld/invisible block by having future blocks committing to reorging the invisible block
11:46 < Taek> which, is not all that pretty. But at the very least it means reorgs have to originate in the main chain
11:47 < Jeremy_Rand[m]> Taek: Yep, entirely plausible that there's no way around that.
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11:48 < Taek> I wonder if Lumio has some novel approach to the problem
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11:50 < Jeremy_Rand[m]> Taek: sounds ugly, yes, thought not necessarily unworkable.  It'll be cool to see how sdlerner deals with it.
11:51 < Jeremy_Rand[m]> s/thought/though
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14:46 < gmaxwell> "Yesterday, our team found a bug in our implementation of Zerocoin. A typographical error on a single additional character in code allowed an attacker to create Zerocoin spend transactions without a corresponding mint. We have identified the error and are pushing the fix urgently within the next 24 hours. We urge all pools and exchanges to update once the release is out." [...] "We estimate the a
14:47 < gmaxwell> ttacker has created about 370,000 Zcoins which has been almost completely sold except for about 20,000+ Zcoin and absorbed on the market with a profit of around 410 BTC."
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14:48 < Jeremy_Rand[m]> gmaxwell: link?
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14:49 < gmaxwell> https://zcoin.io/language/en/important-announcement-zerocoin-implementation-bug
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14:57 < andytoshi> holy crap, i didn't see the part about the attacker earlier
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17:32 < Taek> " If our total supply was not verifiable due to hidden amount transactions, we would not have been able to discover this bug."
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17:46 < kanzure> where's the commit that fixes it?
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20:08 < tromp> https://github.com/zcoinofficial/zcoin/commit/33796c839f7d4df4fb89c2775ec971982cfc8996
20:09 < tromp> they copy-and=pasted the code for handling different denominations (1,10,25,50,100) but forgot to make some changes for 100 case that allowed you to buy it for only 50
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20:11 < tromp> which is what everybody will start doing in the ZCoin Classic fork:-)
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21:42 < uiuc-slack> <amiller> Reflationary currency
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22:20 < Taek> integers man, they get you every time.
22:21 < Taek> I should make a website of integer mistakes that have caused severe security issues in cryptocurrecncy
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22:32 < waxwing> Taek: or isn't this bug a classic example of the 'copy-paste fail on final entry in list' thing. there was some research or paper or something that showed that this was one of the most common sources of bugs.
22:33 < Taek> waxwing: would be great if you could dig up that paper.
22:34 < waxwing> i can't even remember what it was :) i definitely read it on a computer screen.
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22:38 < norotartagen> what integer are you
22:38 < Taek> -1
22:39 < norotartagen> interesting, i consider myself a floor(pi)
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23:52 < waxwing> heh, i'm not alone https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13673620
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--- Log closed Sat Feb 18 00:00:36 2017