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[Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 08:13 -!- Davasny__ [~quassel@77.81.234.90] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:13 -!- Davasny_ [~quassel@78.10.231.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:13 -!- MaxSan [~one@194.187.251.155] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:36 -!- Davasny__ [~quassel@77.81.234.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:37 -!- lclc [~lclc@unaffiliated/lclc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:39 -!- jtimon [~quassel@245.30.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:57 -!- str4d [~str4d@host-78-145-29-21.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:04 -!- none [~none@2601:647:c803:21a0:9d36:4ed3:961e:99b3] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:04 -!- none is now known as Guest82602 09:07 -!- buckowski [buckowski@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-mfuoyengrkuhjnes] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:12 -!- buckowski [buckowski@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-luepvvyzhhjxzmmg] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:22 < nicolagreco> any one that could point me out to some witness encryption scheme that is easy to understand? 09:23 -!- MaxSan [~one@194.187.251.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:43 -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:55 -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:07 -!- bsm117532 [~mcelrath@135.84.167.210] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:09 -!- Iuuvey [~jimmi@213-66-198-251-no183.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:12 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:22 -!- Aranjedeath [~Aranjedea@unaffiliated/aranjedeath] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:18 -!- moli_ [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:18 < moli_> j #lightning-dev 11:18 < moli_> oos 11:39 -!- Uglux [~uglux@p4FE967A9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:39 -!- Uglux [~uglux@p4FE967A9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Changing host] 11:39 -!- Uglux [~uglux@unaffiliated/uglux] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:54 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:08 -!- moli_ [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:08 -!- moli_ [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:03 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:03 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Client Quit] 13:41 -!- oleganza [~oleganza@c-73-170-224-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: oleganza] 13:43 -!- oleganza [~oleganza@c-73-170-224-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:50 -!- shesek [~shesek@bzq-84-110-60-48.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:59 -!- JackH [~laptop@79-73-188-131.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:00 -!- wasi [~wasi@gateway/tor-sasl/wasi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:06 < stevenroose> waxwing, let us know if you find out 14:16 -!- CrazyLoaf [uid67551@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ynegoijsovqlrygz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:19 -!- oleganza 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peer] 15:17 -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-944bc34f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:25 < kanzure> "Attacks on secure logging schemes" http://eprint.iacr.org/2017/095 15:37 -!- PERSIAN [~PERSIAN@mtrlpq4709w-lp130-05-76-64-85-166.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:39 -!- Guest82602 [~none@2601:647:c803:21a0:9d36:4ed3:961e:99b3] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:42 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: :)] 15:49 -!- kankles [~kankles@162.216.46.162] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:53 -!- goksinen [~goksinen@2604:2000:c591:8400:2d4b:14ad:5a1a:4358] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:54 -!- wasi [~wasi@gateway/tor-sasl/wasi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:55 -!- kankles [~kankles@162.216.46.162] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:02 -!- isle2983 [~isle2983@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/isle2983] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:04 -!- isle2983 [~isle2983@162.216.46.109] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:05 -!- legerde [ae3867d7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.56.103.215] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:06 -!- legerde [ae3867d7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.56.103.215] has quit [Client Quit] 16:07 -!- wasi [~wasi@gateway/tor-sasl/wasi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:12 -!- isle2983 [~isle2983@162.216.46.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:19 < Jeremy_Rand[m]> gmaxwell: I'm aware that you wrote a famous proof many years ago that decentralized consensus was impossible (as part of your work on Wikipedia, I believe). Any chance you could provide a link to that proof? I can't find it by Googling. 16:23 -!- goksinen [~goksinen@2604:2000:c591:8400:2d4b:14ad:5a1a:4358] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:44 -!- PERSIAN [~PERSIAN@mtrlpq4709w-lp130-05-76-64-85-166.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:45 -!- handlex [~handlex@2804:14c:658f:4dc7:c8b2:52f4:9796:36d6] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:49 -!- handlex [~handlex@2804:14c:658f:4dc7:c8b2:52f4:9796:36d6] has quit [Client Quit] 17:01 -!- aburan_ [~root@2602:304:ce71:a8f0:95c7:dcb1:104f:7b53] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:07 -!- fibonaccicoin [uid136497@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-thapyghfjsmhpleg] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 17:07 -!- aburan_ [~root@2602:304:ce71:a8f0:95c7:dcb1:104f:7b53] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:23 -!- kankles [~kankles@162.216.46.162] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:40 -!- Uglux [~uglux@unaffiliated/uglux] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:46 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:00 -!- aburan_ [~root@2602:304:ce71:a8f0:95c7:dcb1:104f:7b53] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:11 < gmaxwell> Jeremy_Rand[m]: no way man, I just came up with the same proof that lamport did in the 70s. 18:11 < gmaxwell> you're picking up on some rbtc out of context bullshit. 18:13 < gmaxwell> Where I explained to a reporter that I only ran bitcoin passively for a few months before getting involved at the end of 2010 beginning 2011 becuase I hadn't seen the whitepaper and descriptions I'd seen of it were basically claiming it couldn't be secure (because they were claiming that it did something I /knew/ was impossible with the kind of knowing that only comes by independantly arriving at 18:14 < gmaxwell> the proof)... once I saw the white paper I saw that this wasn't what was being claimed at all and it was much more exciting. 18:15 < gmaxwell> The proof is stated informally just this: if you have a decenteralized system then no one controls admission, anyone could be a member, and so at any point when you think you've settled on a consensus more participants should show up from outside of your light cone (or more frequently, across a network partition), and overrule you. 18:15 < gmaxwell> So such a system can never come to consensus. 18:16 < gmaxwell> Bitcoin avoids the issue by not worrying about coming to consensus, but having a real cost and having the probablity of reorg (under certian plausable assumptions) continue to decrease over time. 18:17 -!- d9b4bef9 [~d9b4bef9@web419.webfaction.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:17 < gmaxwell> But if you look at how other people describe bitcoin early on, and also how the software worked: it looked like confirmations were just counting peers. E.g. classical byzantine consensus, which can't be decenteralized due to the aformentioned more participants show up problem. 18:18 -!- d9b4bef9 [~d9b4bef9@web419.webfaction.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:19 < gmaxwell> The reason I'd ever considered this problenm before is back when we created the Wikimedia foundation, some contributors to wikipedia argued that there should be no orginization to host servers but we should create a totally decenteralized protocol 'like bittorrent' to run the site. And I argued that what people were asking for couldn't be done. 18:31 < sn0wmonster> gmaxwell: speaking of decentralized and wikimedia, after I can safely spend less time on ##taskhive I have been considering a decentralized news sharing network utilizing a potential combination of bitmessage, IPFS, and Tor, with a WoT of imported/verified credentials of journalists and independent witnesses (photos, first-response perspectives) to help weed out the censored news while not promoting "fake" news either. do you 18:31 < sn0wmonster> have any advice on how such a thing could be implemented? I have not sat down and done the math yet because i'm still focused on taskhive, but its a topic i am very curious about. 18:34 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nbjlguyfbhosukos] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 18:35 < gmaxwell> I doubt something like that can be implemented in a way that offers interesting security properties. 18:42 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:43 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:48 < Jeremy_Rand[m]> gmaxwell: actually I don't read r/btc (the people on there are deranged); my impression was based on a video of a talk you gave (I think it was at the SF Bitcoin meetup, a few months before Elements was released) 18:50 < Jeremy_Rand[m]> gmaxwell: and just in case I was ambiguous, I definitely wasn't looking for info about that proof for any reason related to r/btc's dislike of you; it just sounded like an interesting proof and I was curious how it worked (partially because I was curious what Bitcoin's workaround to it was) 18:51 < gmaxwell> Ah, well I hope I answered. (I could also go dig up the WP posts related to this but honestly, I'd rather not link to them because they'll be excerpted out of context to attack me :( ) 18:53 -!- edvorg [~edvorg@14.161.50.223] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:53 < midnightmagic> Brutal.. so many irccloud people in here. 18:54 < midnightmagic> You know, irccloud-using people, irccloud records, permanently, everything you've ever said through their service including PM, right? 18:54 * midnightmagic grumbles 18:54 < Jeremy_Rand[m]> gmaxwell: understandable. Your desire for privacy (especially given the general viciousness of some people who are obsessed with smearing you) definitely outweighs my idle curiosity, so I'll make do with the summary you provided (which is definitely interesting, so thank you for that). 18:55 < gmaxwell> also lamports "Time, Clocks, and the ordering of events in a distributed system" is a great read. 18:55 -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@91.181.4.198] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:55 < gmaxwell> And covers most of what I was talking about-- though I wasn't aware of that paper until after I started working on Bitcoin. 18:56 < Jeremy_Rand[m]> gmaxwell: cool, I'll add that to my "things to read" list 19:22 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:36 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:37 -!- moli_ [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:37 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:37 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:37 -!- moli_ [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:39 -!- moli_ [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:39 -!- moli_ [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:41 -!- Aranjedeath [~Aranjedea@unaffiliated/aranjedeath] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:51 -!- Giszmo1 [~leo@pc-240-13-215-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:52 -!- edvorg [~edvorg@14.161.50.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:53 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz...] 20:01 -!- CrazyLoaf [uid67551@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ynegoijsovqlrygz] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20:05 -!- pro [~pro@unaffiliated/pro] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:20 -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@91.181.4.198] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:23 -!- JackH [~laptop@79-73-188-131.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:24 -!- moli_ [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:31 -!- IRCFrEAK [~gk.1wm.su@2a03:4a80:2:2d3:2d3:9c14:a427:77be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:31 -!- IRCFrEAK [~gk.1wm.su@2a03:4a80:2:2d3:2d3:9c14:a427:77be] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 20:32 -!- oleganza [~oleganza@c-73-170-224-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:34 < sn0wmonster> midnightmagic: that's shitty, but there's nothing guaranteeing freenode not doing the same is there? 20:41 < midnightmagic> sn0wmonster: Freenode has never demonstrated that they actually do it. Ever, as far as I know. irccloud demonstrates it all the time. It is irrelevant, completely whether Freenode *could* do it, since irccloud *does* do it, including PMs. 20:42 < sn0wmonster> I agree irccloud is creepy for doing it 20:43 < midnightmagic> Not only that, but irrcloud has you sign an agreement saying you're okay with it, just to use their service. Freenode does not. Except none of us agreed to it, so in many places, this recording is probably illegal. 20:45 < Jeremy_Rand[m]> midnightmagic: If it's a public IRC channel, there's no way to prevent it from being logged as long as some unknown people are present. If it's PM, use OTR regardless of whether you have evidence of logging by an intermediary. 20:45 -!- edvorg [~edvorg@113.185.26.185] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:45 -!- edvorg [~edvorg@113.185.26.185] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:45 < Jeremy_Rand[m]> I honestly don't see why you're so worried about irccloud specifically 20:45 < gmaxwell> irccloud doesn't let their users use OTR. 20:46 < Jeremy_Rand[m]> gmaxwell: Oh. Didn't know that. Okay yes, that is crappy behavior and no one should use them then. 20:46 < gmaxwell> Jeremy_Rand[m]: because he knows for a fact that they log private message traffic, because they _sent_ him the logs of someone else previously. 20:47 < gmaxwell> midnightmagic: perhaps we should get someone to make an irssi plugin that ignores all PM traffic from irccloud users and responds with a canned message that you're terribly sorry but you're ignoring them because irccloud logs private message traffic. 20:47 < Jeremy_Rand[m]> gmaxwell: I fully agree that a PM method that disallows encryption should never be used. But I think it would be unwise to assume that Freenode isn't logging PM's, especially since Freenode servers have been compromised before (apparently for months before anyone noticed). 20:48 < gmaxwell> I agree that it's unwise to assume that, but still: at least freenode denies that they do. 20:48 -!- edvorg [~edvorg@113.185.26.185] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:48 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:48 < gmaxwell> meaning that if you ever caught them there would be hell to pay. So thats an incentive to keep whatever logging they do secret. 20:48 < gmaxwell> Which is actually protective on average. 20:48 < Jeremy_Rand[m]> Agreed. 20:52 -!- edvorg [~edvorg@113.185.26.185] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:54 -!- edvorg [~edvorg@113.185.22.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:00 -!- legogris [~legogris@128.199.205.238] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:00 -!- legogris [~legogris@128.199.205.238] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:08 < sn0wmonster> agreed 21:17 -!- moli_ [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:54 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:55 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:00 -!- fibonaccicoin [uid136497@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tbsteolsmnsqwkkj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:00 -!- fibonaccicoin [uid136497@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tbsteolsmnsqwkkj] has quit [Changing host] 22:00 -!- fibonaccicoin [uid136497@unaffiliated/goldenangle] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:00 -!- fibonaccicoin [uid136497@unaffiliated/goldenangle] has quit [Changing host] 22:00 -!- fibonaccicoin [uid136497@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tbsteolsmnsqwkkj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:05 -!- Guest50171 [~derek@199.195.250.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:07 -!- [Derek] [~derek@2605:6400:10:3c9:dfd3:3e96:2608:98a7] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:07 -!- [Derek] is now known as Guest32588 22:15 -!- kankles [~kankles@162.216.46.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:19 -!- d9b4bef9 [~d9b4bef9@web419.webfaction.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:20 -!- d9b4bef9 [~d9b4bef9@web419.webfaction.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:20 -!- harrymm [~wayne@104.207.83.19] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:26 -!- anon616 [nobody@gateway/shell/sameroom/x-fwwoyylpckcxeqjy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:27 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:27 -!- anon616 [anon616@gateway/shell/sameroom/x-wsidtozgbkgnioyt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:34 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 22:53 -!- jtimon [~quassel@245.30.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:05 -!- ruby32 [~ruby32@ool-43579aa4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:23 -!- MoALTz [~no@77-254-9-16.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:24 -!- edvorg [~edvorg@113.185.22.202] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:42 -!- bramc [634b58ce@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.75.88.206] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:42 < bramc> My merkle set is now working https://github.com/bramcohen/MerkleSet 23:42 < gmaxwell> Congrats! 23:43 < Jeremy_Rand[m]> bramc: awesome! 23:43 < bramc> Thanks gmaxwell 23:43 < bramc> feedback would be greatly appreciated. In particular I have a hack in there to reduce the hashing load by about 10% which costs a byte of security 23:43 < bramc> And I suspect people will shit on that one from a great height 23:45 < bramc> There's another hack which reduces security by two bits and results in about half the amount of hashing and things being cleaner in memory and generally makes things simpler. That one I'm quite confident in. --- Log closed Sun Feb 19 00:00:37 2017