--- Log opened Mon Mar 06 00:00:50 2017 00:04 -!- Kexkey [~kexkey@23.227.207.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:06 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:08 -!- d9b4bef9 [~d9b4bef9@web419.webfaction.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:09 -!- d9b4bef9 [~d9b4bef9@web419.webfaction.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:17 -!- nu11p7r [~zer00ffse@a2b344ac-b13e-44ab-8a89-91207fff34af.node.sporestack.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:20 -!- nu11p7r [~zer00ffse@a2b344ac-b13e-44ab-8a89-91207fff34af.node.sporestack.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:27 -!- espes__ [~espes@205.185.120.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:28 -!- huseby [~huseby@unaffiliated/huseby] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:06 -!- lmatteis [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mforlhyruhrpilus] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:12 -!- espes__ [~espes@205.185.120.132] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:18 -!- huseby [~huseby@unaffiliated/huseby] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:07 -!- hashtag [~hashtagg_@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:09 -!- jannes [~jannes@095-097-246-234.static.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:18 -!- edvorg [~edvorg@101.99.34.40] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:29 -!- leakypat [~Mutter@p586194-ipngn13401marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:29 -!- leakypat [~Mutter@p586194-ipngn13401marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 02:36 -!- Gk-1wm-su [~111111111@177.67.84.136] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:37 -!- Gk-1wm-su [~111111111@177.67.84.136] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 02:37 -!- Gk-1wm-su [~111111111@177.67.84.136] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:37 -!- Gk-1wm-su [~111111111@177.67.84.136] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 02:37 -!- Gk-1wm-su [~111111111@177.67.84.136] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:37 -!- Gk-1wm-su [~111111111@177.67.84.136] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:37 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:14 -!- edvorg [~edvorg@101.99.34.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:17 -!- kristofferR [~kristoffe@243.37-191-171.fiber.lynet.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 04:18 -!- pro [~pro@unaffiliated/pro] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:30 -!- FoxFoxDay [~Jerry4@bg1.nordvpn.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:37 -!- FoxFoxDay [~Jerry4@bg1.nordvpn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:38 -!- norotartagen [~norotarta@71-89-76-184.dhcp.bycy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:43 -!- kristofferR [~kristoffe@243.37-191-171.fiber.lynet.no] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:16 < andytoshi> waxwing: only thing i can find is https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=915828.msg10056796#msg10056796 which doesn't say much more than i did in my talk :P 05:19 -!- d9b4bef9 [~d9b4bef9@web419.webfaction.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:20 -!- d9b4bef9 [~d9b4bef9@web419.webfaction.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:24 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:24 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:26 -!- nanotube [~nanotube@unaffiliated/nanotube] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:31 -!- Marquess_Loaf [uid67551@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lljygtjynkjvpgho] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 05:34 -!- nanotube [~nanotube@unaffiliated/nanotube] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:37 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [] 05:39 -!- jcorgan [~jcorgan@unaffiliated/jcorgan] has quit [Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in] 05:41 -!- jcorgan [~jcorgan@unaffiliated/jcorgan] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:51 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:57 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2607:b400:24:0:b830:fab7:427e:3e7e] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:12 -!- Kexkey_ [~kexkey@23.227.207.26] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:30 < stevenroose> Q: what happened to good old SIGHASH_NOINPUT? I agree that segwit is infinitely better a malleability fix, but the slight tx throughput increase that comes with it turns out to be quite controversial. As is the complexity. 06:30 < stevenroose> Having a softfork for a simple SIGHASH_NOINPUT might be a lot less controversial. And they would allow Lightning to be deployed on mainnet, right? 06:31 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2607:b400:24:0:b830:fab7:427e:3e7e] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:31 -!- ninjahamstah [ninjahamst@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-twmwrmqkqlrhvafj] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:31 < stevenroose> The implementation complexity is very limited. https://github.com/Roasbeef/bitcoin/commit/4b3c3f1baf7985208ceb6887261ee150ab6e3328 06:32 < othe> i wouldn't call sth controversial that has been looked at for years or months, feels more like a narrow minded people issue than a technical issue 06:32 -!- ninjahamstah [~ninjahams@141.8.108.122] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:35 -!- NewLiberty_ [~NewLibert@2607:b400:24:0:98eb:87f3:bbb2:d157] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:37 < stevenroose> othe, well yeah, it's both. technical complexity is not only the chance of introducing bugs, but also the fact that you are increasing the technical depth is total. Even though, I'm totally in favor of SW, I do think that it makes sense to favor solutions that make the protocol as whole as little more complex as possible. 06:38 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2607:b400:24:0:b830:fab7:427e:3e7e] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:52 -!- leakypat [~Mutter@p586194-ipngn13401marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:57 -!- jtimon [~quassel@70.30.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:58 -!- q4 [~q4@user-94-254-228-10.play-internet.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:01 -!- leakypat [~Mutter@p586194-ipngn13401marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Mutter: www.mutterirc.com] 07:06 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:07 -!- leakypat [~Mutter@p586194-ipngn13401marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:09 -!- leakypat [~Mutter@p586194-ipngn13401marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 07:12 -!- JackH [~laptop@79-73-184-8.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:13 -!- JackH [~laptop@79-73-184-8.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:14 -!- flipperWhip [~senpai@rrcs-97-78-166-154.se.biz.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:19 -!- binaryatrocity_ [~quassel@2606:df00:3:0:216:3cff:fe68:30d9] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:19 -!- binaryatrocity [~quassel@unaffiliated/br4n] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:20 -!- binaryatrocity [~quassel@unaffiliated/br4n] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:21 -!- binaryatrocity [~quassel@2606:df00:3:0:216:3cff:fe68:30d9] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:21 -!- binaryatrocity [~quassel@2606:df00:3:0:216:3cff:fe68:30d9] has quit [Changing host] 07:21 -!- binaryatrocity [~quassel@unaffiliated/br4n] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:21 -!- binaryatrocity [~quassel@unaffiliated/br4n] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:34 -!- JackH [~laptop@79-73-184-8.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:34 -!- q4 [~q4@user-94-254-228-10.play-internet.pl] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz...] 07:36 -!- JackH [~laptop@85.255.233.212] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:38 -!- NikopolSohru [~Nikopol@185.143.230.239] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:38 -!- hashtag [~hashtagg_@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:41 -!- JackH [~laptop@85.255.233.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:42 < bsm117532> I see a number of people discussing how a UASF could result in a hard fork. I don't see how this is the case, can someone explain? Since it's a soft fork, both old and new style blocks from miners are valid and can make one chain. 07:43 < bsm117532> If only half the hashpower is mining segwit then segwit transactions would take twice as long to get mined, but I don't see any way this could result in a chain split. 07:49 < kanzure> they mean if someone maliciously mines an invalid block, *and* hashrate mines on top of that block 07:49 < bsm117532> A non-upgraded miner will only miss out on segwit txn fees. But to create a fork he'd have to write code to actively detect segwit blocks and not mine on top of them. That would be dumb. 07:50 < bsm117532> kanzure: Why in the world would someone do that? That's a standard hashpower hard fork. 07:50 < kanzure> no idea :) 07:50 < bsm117532> (since a non-upgraded miner won't be able to detect segwit blocks without extra work) 07:51 < bsm117532> So the opposition to UASF from Ver/Wu is that "some miner might do something really dumb that has nothing to do with UASF or the specific soft fork in question"? 07:55 -!- JackH [~laptop@79-73-184-8.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:55 -!- bityogi [~textual@208-104-132-26.brvd.dsl.dyn.comporium.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:55 < kanzure> this is increasingly not a -wizard topic 07:56 < bsm117532> Well, whether UASF does/not result in a hard fork certainly is... 07:59 < stevenroose> I really don't get UASF. Reading the BIP it seems to make no sense at all, so I just considered it irrelevant. 08:00 < stevenroose> Why would you have the whole bip9 soft fork activation mechanism based on mining if you just specify a date when it will be activated anyway. 08:00 < stevenroose> That's all UASF does (according to BIP): specify a date at which the SF is activated regardless of any support indicator. 08:01 < stevenroose> I don't see how it is "user-defined" at all rather than developer-defined. 08:01 -!- mdavid613 [~Adium@cpe-172-251-161-231.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:04 < riclas> if users don't upgrade, they don't indicate support. 08:05 < bsm117532> It's user defined if there exist users who submit the new-style transactions, and miners who decide to mine them. 08:10 < stevenroose> Yeah so where is it different from a hard fork? 08:11 < stevenroose> With BIP9 soft forks, you can safely upgrade your software because you know your client will only enable the SF when 95% of the miners will accept your txs 08:12 < stevenroose> It's basically a "resort to hard fork after this deadline" 08:13 < bsm117532> UASF is soft because both old and new style blocks are valid to old nodes, and can be mined by old nodes. It's not a hard fork at all, and can't result in a chain split AFAICT... 08:17 -!- NewLiberty_ [~NewLibert@2607:b400:24:0:98eb:87f3:bbb2:d157] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:17 -!- q4 [~q4@user-94-254-228-10.play-internet.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:18 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2607:b400:24:0:98eb:87f3:bbb2:d157] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:19 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:19 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2607:b400:24:0:98eb:87f3:bbb2:d157] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:20 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:24 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:25 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@n2d0354c3.cns.vt.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:26 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:27 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:32 -!- nkhl [~nkhl@1.186.76.20] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:33 -!- NewLiberty_ [~NewLibert@2607:b400:24:0:45a2:e560:9839:8fbf] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:35 -!- cluckj [~cluckj@static-98-114-125-87.phlapa.ftas.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:36 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@n2d0354c3.cns.vt.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:40 -!- kaalikahn [~remote_us@45.55.206.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:40 -!- kaalikahn [~remote_us@45.55.206.107] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:41 -!- nkhl [~nkhl@1.186.76.20] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:41 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:43 -!- nkhl [~nkhl@1.186.76.20] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:44 -!- nkhl [~nkhl@1.186.76.20] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:44 -!- nkhl [~nkhl@1.186.76.20] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:46 < gmaxwell> bsm117532: you're hearing people who are confused about the definition of a hardfork. I've encountered it many times... (usually when they go and say "segwit is a hardfork!") and other such stuff. The confused definition they have seemed to be using is "a hardfork is anything which could cause rejection of a block". 08:46 -!- nkhl [~nkhl@1.186.76.20] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:46 -!- nkhl [~nkhl@1.186.76.20] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:47 < bsm117532> gmaxwell: Ok, thanks for confirming that for me. 08:47 -!- n1ce [~n1ce@unaffiliated/n1ce] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:48 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:49 -!- abpa [~abpa@96-82-80-25-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:49 -!- n1ce [~n1ce@unaffiliated/n1ce] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:50 -!- comboy [~quassel@tesuji.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:50 -!- comboy [~quassel@tesuji.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:54 -!- nkhl [~nkhl@1.186.76.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:57 -!- NewLiberty_ [~NewLibert@2607:b400:24:0:45a2:e560:9839:8fbf] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:01 < bsm117532> It might be interesting if a UASF was preceded by a window of time where the new-style transactions could be accepted into the mempool, but not mined. Thus miners would have a growing pool of txn fees they know they can claim on "flag day", and make the economically rational decision to mine them. 09:13 < stevenroose> bsm117532, like greg says, it's a HF because it can cause a split. bip9 ensures 5% of less people on the old chain, which is rather minor. when the fractions are more or less equal, there will be a chain split, since old nodes can make transactions that are refused by the new ones. in case of segwit, f.e., old nodes can spend all segwit transactions as if they were anyone can spend txs, so new clients will fork off the old guys 09:13 < bsm117532> stevenroose: that's opposite to what greg says. It's not a HF. 09:13 < bsm117532> There are not two chains. There is one. 09:14 < bsm117532> Old nodes cannot make transactions that are refused by new ones. 09:15 < bsm117532> Oh I see...someone could try to claim segwit outputs as anyone-can-spend. Yes that would create a fork... 09:16 -!- MaxSan [~one@213.152.162.181] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:17 < gmaxwell> stevenroose: that is an incorrect definition of a hardfork. 09:18 < kanzure> bsm117532: those are nonstandard transactions and will not get mined. 09:18 < gmaxwell> bsm117532: segwit redemptions are non-standard under the old rules. 09:18 < stevenroose> well, it's a chain split 09:19 < stevenroose> gmaxwell, does consensus reject non-standard txs? 09:19 < bsm117532> gmaxwell: nice. So then a chain split is impossible here... 09:19 < gmaxwell> stevenroose: Yes, though one that would require specific intent to create... which anyone can do at any time. It is emphatically not a hardfork: it's compatible with existing nodes. We do ourselves no favors to swizzle all words to incomprehensibility. 09:19 < gmaxwell> bsm117532: you mean a 'pure chance' split or similar I assume. 09:20 < kanzure> consensus rejects invalid transactions. the nonstandardness is re: what miners mine by default. 09:20 -!- ninjahamstah [~ninjahams@141.8.108.122] has quit [] 09:20 < bsm117532> gmaxwell: Yes. Absent an intentional act to create an invalid block by modifying the code, a chain split will not happen regarless of which version of core anyone is running. (AFAICT) 09:20 < kanzure> you can mine a nonstandard-yet-valid transaction. in this instance we are talking about nonstandard and invalid. hence you would require intent. 09:20 < stevenroose> kanzure gmaxwell, if I would mine a block with a non-standard tx, would it be rejected? 09:21 < kanzure> is the non-standard transaction also invalid? 09:21 < stevenroose> I guess it's not 09:21 < stevenroose> imagine a tx that still threats the segwit opcode as a no_op? 09:21 < gmaxwell> then no, ugh come on please. Take some time to actually understand these things? 09:23 < stevenroose> bsm117532, you can't assume everyone is running Core 09:23 < bsm117532> gmaxwell: what about the txn makes a segwit redemption (treated as anyone-can-spend) nonstandard and invalid? 09:25 < arubi> why would redeeming a segwit script be invalid at any point (before or after a soft fork)? it's just from a non soft forked node's point of view? 09:25 < gmaxwell> I regret to inform you that your use of 'anyone-can-spend' may be an indicator of brain cancern. "Anyone-can-spend" does not exist as a thing anywhere in the protocol, it's an informalism to refer to consenus unconstrained scriptpubkeys that somehow clueless people have mistaken as a protocol feature. 09:27 < gmaxwell> bsm117532: In the protocol we have three main 'areas' reserved for forward extensions: Transaction version, use of nops, and the CLEANSTACK rule. So long as any future extension is invalid under one of these constraints it will be non-standard to older nodes. Segwit spends violate the third. 09:28 < gmaxwell> Prior to the existane of CLEANSTACK there was an even more restrictive set of conditions that would have rejected segwit txn due to not matching a small set of templates. 09:29 < bsm117532> gmaxwell: that's true for both P2WSH and P2WPKH? 09:30 < gmaxwell> bsm117532: s/core // in your earlier message-- also "regardless of version" isn't strictly necessary, since there are older versions which would mine other no longer valid transactions, so compatiblity there only needs to exist with versions past that. 09:30 < gmaxwell> bsm117532: yes, they look the same to older nodes. It's also true for the P2SH embeddings. 09:32 < gmaxwell> e.g. there are versions prior to uh... 0.3.mumble that don't have the non-standardness restrictions... but you can't mine on them now anyways, even if you somehow got them in sync with the network. 09:33 < shesek> I made a time-locked-weighted (via CSV) voting system this past weekend for a hackathon, would love to hear what you think :) 09:33 < shesek> https://hodl.voting/ https://github.com/shesek/proof-of-hodl https://www.docdroid.net/rzFKS1g/proof-of-hodl.pdf.html 09:35 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:36 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:36 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Client Quit] 09:36 < bsm117532> gmaxwell: thanks, I didn't know about the CLEANSTACK rule. I'll likely blag about UASF once certain restrictions are lifted by my company... 09:38 < gmaxwell> shesek: do you have a theory that the locking of the funds will discourage third party custodians from inappropriately using their customer funds? 09:39 < shesek> gmaxwell, among other things, yes 09:39 < shesek> https://www.docdroid.net/rzFKS1g/proof-of-hodl.pdf.html#page=8 09:39 < shesek> the bigger point for me is that voting has a cost attached to it 09:40 < shesek> and that its a cost that shows you have a long-term vested interest in bitcoin 09:48 -!- MaxSan [~one@213.152.162.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:51 -!- azonenberg [~azonenber@chat.dmz.bainbridge.antikernel.net] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 09:52 -!- shesek [~shesek@bzq-84-110-54-251.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:00 < tromp_> adam back in interview: i had a zx81 with 1 meg of ram and 16meg expansion :-) 10:02 -!- thrmo [~thrmo@unaffiliated/thrmo] has joined 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