--- Log opened Wed Mar 15 00:00:59 2017
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02:20 < Taek> tromp_, gmaxwell: if a bunch of nodes decide to UASF but the majority hashrate does not cooperate, you end up with a coin split, which I think is reasonable to call a hard fork
02:21 < Taek> You have two different chains, a longer one that never activated (or activated and then later mined an invalid tx under the new rules and kept building on it)
02:22 < Taek> And also a shorter chain that's running new rules. If the shorter chain ever catches up, the longer chain gets fully obliterated
02:22 < Taek> The coin split is resolved and a lot of people lose a lot of money
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02:33 < arubi> it becomes a hard for only if somewhere down the line an invalid block is mined.  even under uasf, a non cooperative majority hashrate is still part of the main chain.  post-uasf transactions just take long to confirm because not many are mining them
02:35 < arubi> the chains split at some invalid block, then if the economic majority is behind the uasf, the majority hashrate chain dies because it's worthless, then the shorter chain overtakes it
02:35 < arubi> but for uasf nodes, nothing changed
02:37 < arubi> I still think a segwit uasf is too extreme (although I'd run it).  I think a uasf for coinbase string cleanup is much safer and has the same impact :)
02:41 < arubi> if the majority hashrate wants to censor uasf-enabled blocks, then even uasf nodes can't do much, but I don't think it's worth it for miners to do that
02:42 < Taek> Yes someone would have to intentionally trigger the split. If all miners run vanilla code there's no issue.
02:42 < Taek> But you only need one small miner trying to trigger the split as long as the majority hashrate isn't validating the new rules
02:43 < arubi> they'll have to make it seem like a proper uasf block, but make it invalid
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02:44 < arubi> hmm, maybe not.
02:44 < Taek> Why? They just need a block that the non-upgraded miners see as valid, but the UASF sees as invalid
02:44 < arubi> yea, anyone can intentionally trigger that, but I don't know how easy that'll be
02:44 < Taek> Well, miners would lose a lot of money for mining on a chain that's not supported by the economy
02:45 < Taek> There's a lot of pressure for the miners to accept the upgrade, and a lot of risk to resist it.
02:45 < Taek> Also little downside
02:45 < arubi> that
02:45 < arubi> that's the hope
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05:09 < bsm117532> Taek: that can't happen by accident.  It's a hashrate mining 51% attack.  Miners must write software to identify the UASF side of the fork and intentionally not mine on it.  By default, a non-upgraded miner would happily mine on top of new-rule UASF blocks and would not create a hard fork.
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08:18 < Taek> No, you don't need 51% hashrate to cause the attack. Legacy miners will build on top of any legacy-valid block
08:19 < Taek> After the first UASF txn, you just have to spend it in a way that is illegal to the UASF nodes but legal to the legacy miners
08:19 < Taek> They will extend it, and you have a coin split
08:20 < kanzure> Taek: ah except those miners currently don't intentionally mine nonstandard transactions
08:22 < Taek> No but they will build on top of them, correct?
08:22 < Taek> One miner has to mine the nonstandard txn, but that miner doesn't need 51% hashrate to get it to stick
08:22 < kanzure> depends on what their border nodes are doing
08:23 < Taek> That's true, if the block is never relayed there may not be issues. But I think that's not a very strong defense
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08:46 < bsm1175322> Taek: all UASF valid blocks are legacy valid blocks.
08:46 < bsm1175322> "After the first UASF txn, you just have to spend it in a way that is illegal to the UASF nodes but legal to the legacy miners" -- this is impossible, it's a soft fork
08:47 < bsm1175322> Miners would have to intentionally go into the code and twiddle it to mine nonstandard transactions, and then devote their hashrate to it.
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08:52 < kanzure> bsm1175322: also that attack scenario is more difficult in absence of miner coordination
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09:03 < bsm1175322> kanzure: in other words, to succeed, it has to have 51% of the hashrate.  It's a standard hashrate 51% attack.
09:04 < kanzure> right.. which is basically a plea to change PoW.
09:05 < bsm1175322> This has absolutely nothing to do with UASF.
09:09 < Taek> You are incorrect! If >51% of the miners are oblivious to the UASF, it's fairly easy to trigger a coin split!
09:09 < Taek> Those miners will happily extend a block containing an transaction that is illegal to the UASF nodes!
09:10 < Taek> All you need is one person to mine an illegal transaction, and then the legacy miners will build on it
09:11 < bsm1175322> Incorrect, it's a SOFT FORK.  There are no transactions that are (newly) illegal to UASF nodes.
09:12 < Taek> Yes there are! A soft fork means you make things that used to be legal become illegal. There's this grey area created that is legal to old nodes (but nonstandard) but illegal to new nodes
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09:13 < Taek> All you need to do is mine a transaction in that grey area, and then watch as the legacy miners extend it
09:14 < gmaxwell> bsm1175322: you sound a bit confused
09:14 < gmaxwell> though I thought the whole argument w/ UASF is that it doesn't matter... litecoin miners produce incompatible blocks all day long, Bitcoin doesn't care.
09:14 < bsm1175322> Taek: I asked the same question last week: https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-wizards/2017-03-06/?msg=82006249&page=1
09:15 < gmaxwell> bsm1175322: there is a difference between default behaviors and if someone malicious mines an invalid block.
09:15 < gmaxwell> The premise, I thought, is that miners don't have a choice to update in the event of a UASF because they're just going to get ignored if they do something incompatible.
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09:16 < gmaxwell> bsm1175322: no unmodified software will mine something incompatible on its own, but if some genius modifies their software to do so, the non-upgraded miners will extend it until they are eclipsed by a longer chain or until their operators realize they are mining things that are getting ignored.
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09:18 < bsm1175322> That's a big gamble for a miner to take...
09:19 < gmaxwell> it's not a gamble, it's an attack. It's completely moronic as a gamble, they'll lose.
09:19 < gmaxwell> but maybe you can mine one invalid block and then send your competition off on a lark... better for you.
09:20 < kanzure> and also, what benefit is it to introduce those specific nonstandard transactions? how valuable is that to them O_o.
09:20 < gmaxwell> And if the UASF is actually ubiquitious, harmless to bitcoin users too.
09:20 < kanzure> ok maybe some value about having other miners on a wild goose chase, but....
09:20 < gmaxwell> though if its not, its potentially disruptive to bitcoin users.
09:20 < kanzure> wild goose chase has to be balanced against negative effect of contributing to general confusion
09:21 < bsm1175322> general confusion is not in a miner's best interest...
09:21 < gmaxwell> But at the same time, all of this seems strictly safer than a hardfork to me-- since the absolute mandatory condition for safty at all with a hardfork (upgrading) is also sufficient here.
09:21 < bsm1175322> But anyway, this is just an argument that we need 51% of miners signaling too for a UASF, no?
09:21 < gmaxwell> Sure but you cannot assume that the miners motivations are simple. Do that and you end up with the BTU 'just trust miners implicitly' security model.
09:22 < gmaxwell> I think it was just a point that it isn't attack free.
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09:31 < Taek> It's substantially better than a hardfork imo, because in the event of a coin split (inevitable in a hardfork), all you need is the majority economy on the UASF side of the split to pull the entire ecosystem onto one chain
09:31 < Taek> in a UASF, there is only a permanent coin split if less than half of the economy performs the upgrade
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09:32 < Taek> otherwise the block reward will be higher on the UASF side, and eventually the mining will catch up and collapse the chains
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09:32 < Taek> The threat of the UASF catching up is a massive risk for miners
09:32 < Taek> they'd rather just upgrade early and avoid the risk
09:32 < Taek> (well, assuming they are thinking that far ahead)
09:33 < kanzure> if miners are actively flaunting the rules, Taek, then that lends more credibility to PoW change
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09:52 < fluffypony> I vote we switch to X11
09:53 < kanzure> xfree86 is clearly better
09:53 < fluffypony> I meant the PoW algorithm :-P
09:53 < fluffypony> in fact we should do like X20
09:53 < fluffypony> just mash everything together
09:54 < gmaxwell> Taek: yea, upgrade pressure in the past has been pretty good at getting miners to upgrade.
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10:46  * sipa suggests using triple-xor as PoW
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10:50 < pigeons> ROT13 + DHT
10:50 < fluffypony> double-ROT13
10:50 < fluffypony> lol snap pigeons
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10:56  * jcorgan thinks we should forget PoW altogether and take an r/btc vote up/down on every new block
11:00 < fluffypony> jcorgan: perfect
11:00 < fluffypony> that provides ~the same security model as Dash
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11:07 < bsm1175322> If things are contentious now...I fear the chaos that would ensue if someone seriously suggested a PoW change.  We'd definitely get a coin split.
11:10 < jcorgan> heh, istr when luke submitted a PR to BU (or was it classic) to change the PoW to solve the miner centralization problem
11:10 < sipa> istr?
11:10 < jcorgan> i seem to recall
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13:37 < kanzure> .title https://lists.launchpad.net/mimblewimble/msg00058.html
13:37 < yoleaux> Potentional method of hardforking MimbleWimble via freaky invalid to valid block transitions : Mailing list archive : mimblewimble team in Launchpad
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18:02 < instagibbs> petertodd, is the TXO data structure you mentioned in your MIT Expo talk detailed somewhere? I haven't really been following the email convos
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18:19 < kanzure> instagibbs: https://petertodd.org/2016/delayed-txo-commitments
18:19 < kanzure> also the links in http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/mit-bitcoin-expo-2017/scaling-and-utxos/
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18:52 < instagibbs> kanzure, ah, links, right thanks
18:54 < kanzure> andytoshi: ignotus emails are not showing up on the mimblewimble mailing list
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