--- Log opened Thu Mar 16 00:00:59 2017 00:02 -!- bildramer [~bildramer@p2003004D2B673100392E752C0460230A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:03 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-crxbwkqmjqvphqxo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:04 -!- bildramer1 [~bildramer@p2003004D2B67310065351A5523F12B3E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:45 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:50 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:55 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:03 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:07 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:08 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:08 -!- ahmedsfhtagn [~ahmeds42@212.0.149.80] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:14 -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-944bc443.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:18 -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-944bc443.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:20 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:25 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:29 -!- voyager_ [~voyager@ip70-185-195-78.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:29 -!- voyager_ [~voyager@ip70-185-195-78.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:35 -!- MaxSan [~one@109.202.107.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:50 -!- moli_ [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:57 -!- mountaingoat [~mountaing@unaffiliated/mountaingoat] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:04 -!- MaxSan [~one@109.202.107.5] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:10 -!- mountaingoat [~mountaing@unaffiliated/mountaingoat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:18 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:21 -!- Russianguy [~Russiangu@194.168.230.19] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:23 -!- Russianguy [~Russiangu@194.168.230.19] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 02:33 -!- btiefert [~omniden@43.sub-70-195-203.myvzw.com] has quit [Quit: btiefert] 02:48 < Taek> I thought it would be interesting to ship a mining pool server with bitcoin core, to make it easy for new mining pools to join the network 02:48 < Taek> (hypothetical) 02:48 < Taek> To engage this pool, miners would run their own full nodes, pick their own transactions (getblocktemplate style), and then use a payment channel to the pool server to get PPS 02:49 < Taek> anyone wanting to run a mining pool would set some fee (like a competitive market) and then just pay out for shares 02:49 < kinlo> I dont think making an easy mining pool would be a good idea 02:49 < kinlo> we have a lot of history of mining pools gone wrong 02:49 < kinlo> if you want to solomine, it can be done relatively easy 02:50 < Taek> kinlo: do you have specific incidents you are worried about? A mining pool server shipped by core developers is unlikely to have issues (assuming it gets developed at all) 02:50 < Taek> There are two additional things that would make this more practical 02:50 < kinlo> Taek: there were some opensource mining pools that did get hacked afaik 02:51 < kinlo> but more likely those who run it will not be able to fix any problems if they arise 02:51 < Taek> the first is some consensus system (like Jute) with improved fairness and selfish mining resistance 02:51 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:51 < kinlo> running a pool is not an easy job 02:51 < kinlo> I've ran a pool for several years, I know what I'm talking about 02:51 < Taek> b/c mining pools run from home will have trouble with their orphan rates 02:51 < kinlo> if it is public, you are going to attract a lot of hackers 02:52 < kinlo> if it is private, you are solomining and you are not pooling 02:52 < Taek> and then the second is a more substantial fix to the block withholding attack, perhaps adding a signature from the coinbase txn or something to make sure that the person giving the share to the mining pool has no idea if they've mined a valid block 02:52 < fluffypony> Taek: why not just package p2pool in? 02:52 < fluffypony> package/bundle/whatever 02:53 < kinlo> p2pool is indeed the only real solution 02:53 < Taek> kinlo: solomining is not relatively easy, you need a massive amount of hardware and electricity to get the variance low enough, unless you are sitting on a fat pile of cash and also willing to gamble it 02:53 < kinlo> Taek: you cannot prevent block withholding, coz you always know if a block is valid or not 02:53 < Taek> but your concerns about hackers are well placed 02:53 < fluffypony> considering I'm literally sitting next to Taek I should just tell him 02:54 < kinlo> Taek: it is also not worth the effort running a pool 02:54 < kinlo> you need enough people to stay relevant, and people wont come to you if you are not 02:54 < kinlo> it is just a lot of pain :) 02:54 < kinlo> again, I ran a pool for years, I know why I quit 02:56 < Taek> kinlo: you can if you change the PoW algorithm, I think it's fairly easy to eliminate the block withholding. Instead of scoring based on just the hash, you have two levels. The first is the hash of the block, and then if that is cleared you also need a signature of the hash, which only has a 1/256 chance of success or similar 02:56 < Taek> but you have to make sure that each block hash has exactly 1 valid signature, which I think you can only do with schnorr? 02:56 -!- lmatteis [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dqwwewksfubwtbak] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:56 < Taek> but I'm pretty sure there are other methods to achieve the same thign 02:57 < kinlo> Taek: you are talking about a serious hard fork then 02:57 < Taek> at this point yes, this is the theoretical ideas channel after all 02:58 < Taek> but then I was thinking about something amiller has expressed interest in, which is -EV mining 02:58 < Taek> and I think you're never going to get serious miners to buy a lot of hardware with -EV mining 02:58 < Taek> but... if you are running a pool, you can offer 102% reward or whatever in your PPS, and then you can gamble that you get a block early 02:58 < Taek> since it's getblocktemplate, it's still decentralized 02:59 < Taek> but you can gamble while also funding PoW 02:59 < kinlo> Taek: you do know you get *all* the shit over you if you run a pool 02:59 < kinlo> and if you're doing PPS you need to pay a lot of cash out of your own pocket 03:00 < kinlo> what is in it for the pool operator? 03:00 < kinlo> they get all the risk 03:00 < Taek> yes, mining pools in this case would need to start with enough cash to potentially cover several block rewards 03:00 < kinlo> yeah, but will they make a profit? 03:00 < Taek> or perhaps even not, they could just try for 10 btc worth of shares and then give up 03:00 < kinlo> if you cannot guarantee a profit, why should one bother? 03:01 < Taek> kinlo: one could ask the same question about the billions of dollars spent every year on lottery tickets and casinos 03:01 < Taek> the idea here is to make operating a mining pool accessible to non-professionals 03:01 < Taek> it would be profitable if you had deep enough pockets, enough patience, and little enough competition 03:02 < Taek> but I suspect that there would be enough competition that professional pool operators wouldn't bother 03:02 < Taek> which is more the real goal - if you have 100 unprofessional pools, this is much better than a dozen or so professional pools 03:03 -!- harrymm [~wayne@104.222.140.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:04 < Taek> and better still if you can get a thousand or more professional pools 03:05 < Taek> *unprofessional pools 03:06 < kinlo> see, pooled mining is only usefull if you have a lot of people in it 03:09 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:14 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:15 -!- kristofferR [~kristoffe@91.37-191-173.fiber.lynet.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 03:18 -!- kristofferR [~kristoffe@91.37-191-173.fiber.lynet.no] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:19 -!- harrymm [~wayne@104.222.140.93] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:26 < Taek> kinlo: I don't have a great understanding of all the pains of mining pool operators, but I would be interested in hearing more about the problems you ran into 03:28 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:29 < kinlo> Taek: well, when I ran my pool it was during the days bitcoin mining was affordeable to everyone who had the money to buy a game pc so the world has changed since, but still 03:29 < kinlo> You can basically put it to several categories: 03:30 < kinlo> - People know you have a wallet online that pays out bitcoins to people. So you get attacked on all sides, there was a nearly constant brute force attack on passwords, every day your servers get probed over and over 03:30 < kinlo> you only have to skip one security update and you're robbed 03:31 < kinlo> - secondly, people are stupid. People do not understand mining and you need to explain everything to everyone 03:31 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:31 < kinlo> just one forum post that you didn't payout someone would make people wary of your pool so you do need to help people with their wallet problems, even if their iq is not high enough to open a bottle of water 03:33 < kinlo> - thirdly, you need to get a constant flow of new people going: I found the attentionspan to be around 1 day, if you didn't find a block per day, people would just go away and go search for another pool, which lowers your chances of finding a new block 03:35 < kinlo> - 4: you need to payout people, even if you mess up and lose bitcoins 03:35 < kinlo> which basically means, you get a lot of shit, a lot of risk, and no financial gains 03:35 < kinlo> surely, I did make a coin in the early days 03:35 -!- Kelton [~Kelton@static.22.144.99.88.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:35 < kinlo> but after a while, it was certainly not worht the time I put into it so I had to close it down 03:36 < kinlo> oh yeah 03:36 < kinlo> we're talking about money so: 03:36 < kinlo> 5) uptime. can't afford to be down for 5 minutes 03:36 -!- Mikayla [~Mikayla@static.22.144.99.88.clients.your-server.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:36 < kinlo> and the cherry on top: 6) ddos attacks. We got several threads. Look your pool was down for 1 hour. That was us. Pay us X bitcoins or we do it again 03:37 < kinlo> threats* 03:38 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:39 < kinlo> so basically, you need to be online 24/7 to fix problems, work very hard at it, and for what? 03:41 -!- Mikayla [~Mikayla@static.22.144.99.88.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:41 < Taek> so, the network I am thinking about would resolve a lot of these issues 03:42 < Taek> b/c you'd have a large set of mining pool servers, and so if one goes down for a while, the miners will just auto-switch to another 03:42 < Taek> the humans aren't picking the pools, the software is 03:42 < Taek> this will also help with the customer support aspects 03:43 < Taek> the opsec stuff though would still be a problem, potentially enough of a problem to kill the idea entirely 03:43 < fluffypony> Taek: what if I Sybil the network and run malicious mining pools that don't pay out? 03:43 < Taek> fluffypony: it's payment channel based PPS, 'not paying out' isn't a thing :) 03:44 < Taek> you get a payment channel payment for every share 03:44 * fluffypony ponders 03:44 < Taek> re: p2pool, doesn't work because the payouts aren't large enough. You still have to make payouts large enough in p2pool to justify the transaction fees 03:45 < Taek> but in PPS you can get paid steadily every hour and then only cash out when you need it 03:45 < Taek> and now I'm really dreaming, but if we've got a full lightning network and you can pay your electricity company through lightning you may be able to years without needing to withdraw 03:47 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:21 -!- kristofferR [~kristoffe@91.37-191-173.fiber.lynet.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:23 -!- harrymm [~wayne@104.222.140.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:23 -!- kristofferR [~kristoffe@91.37-191-173.fiber.lynet.no] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:24 < nsh> (probably uninteresting: https://storj.io/ claims to be distributed storage with blockchains and p2ps and puppies and kittens but all the documentation is about using their API etc and no white paper or backend technical explanation that i can find) 04:25 < nsh> (ok, maybe i didn't look very hard: https://storj.io/storj.pdf ) 04:28 < fluffypony> nsh: ask Taek about it 04:28 < fluffypony> it's his favourite 04:28 < nsh> Kademlia DHT with shards locally client encrypted with AES256-CTR; DHT node IDs are 'valid [spendable] Bitcoin addresses' 04:29 < nsh> if you have to sign by spending for every operation then this isn't going to work on Bitcoin... 04:29 < fluffypony> also relevant: http://forum.sia.tech/topic/21/sia-vs-storj-vs-maidsafe 04:29 < fluffypony> .t http://forum.sia.tech/topic/21/sia-vs-storj-vs-maidsafe 04:29 < yoleaux> fluffypony: Sorry, I don't know what timezone that is. If in doubt, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tz_database_time_zones for a list of options. 04:29 < fluffypony> oh the title is in the URL 04:29 < Taek> nsh: storj just came out of beta last week! And, you can now pay cash to store data on their platform. Interestingly enough, you cannot pay cryptocurrency, only cash 04:29 < nsh> heh 04:29 < Taek> that should sum up their priorities I think 04:29 * nsh nods 04:33 -!- bildramer1 [~bildramer@p2003004D2B67310079ED91BB485C5283.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:36 -!- bildramer [~bildramer@p2003004D2B673100392E752C0460230A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:41 < nsh> 'The reference implementation will use Storjcoin micropayment channels which are currently under development' # presumably this is no longer the plan 04:42 < nsh> oh the coin was announced in 2014 04:42 < nsh> heh 04:42 -!- harrymm [~wayne@104.222.140.73] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:47 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:52 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 04:57 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined 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[uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-issswzzvvjpmuutg] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:36 < petertodd> instagibbs: I haven't written up txo commitments in one place yet 06:37 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@201.191.198.142] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:38 < instagibbs> petertodd, "marking as spent in place" was the piece I was missing 06:39 < petertodd> instagibbs: ah, yeah, I've noticed a few people miss that bit 06:50 < instagibbs> A single "spend story" would likely clear up this confusion. 07:00 < petertodd> instagibbs: that's a good idea! 07:04 < nsh> hmm 07:07 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:07 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:13 -!- pro [~pro@unaffiliated/pro] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:15 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@201.191.198.142] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:23 -!- flipperWhip [~senpai@rrcs-97-78-166-154.se.biz.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:33 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@201.191.198.142] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:34 -!- Digital_Dacha [~dcrowley@67.135.162.25] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:40 < andytoshi> kanzure: what do you mean "not showing up"? igno runs the mailing list, if he's having trouble then he needs to talk to himself about it.. 07:45 < kanzure> you talk with him more than i do 07:51 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@201.191.198.142] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:19 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-240-13-215-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:24 < bsm1175322> http://www.cc.gatech.edu/~aboldyre/papers/bclo.pdf 08:25 < tromp_> kanzure: i found ignotus mw emails in my gmail spam folder 08:25 -!- JackH [~laptop@217.149.140.177] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:25 < tromp_> then when i marked them as non-spam they disappeared entitrly. 08:25 < bsm1175322> "Order Preserving Symmetric Encryption" was pointed out to me at BitDevs last night as a potential crypto which could be used (somehow) in an improved SPV scheme to improve wallet privacy. 08:25 < andytoshi> tromp_: could be google trying to undermine protonmail to make some TLA happy :/ 08:26 < tromp_> right now google is undermining my faith in gmail 08:27 -!- fibonacci [uid136497@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ivplezxiztgusiox] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 08:27 < tromp_> it's not just protonmail. it also marked as spam some ongoing email correspondence with a recumbent shop 08:29 < kanzure> it happens with yahoo and some other email providers, it's a known issue 08:29 < tromp_> what i hate most is that that marking as non-spam is so broken that it loses all traces of those emails 08:29 -!- cluelessperson [~cluelessp@unaffiliated/cluelessperson] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:29 < kanzure> it moves them into the inbox, i believe. 08:30 -!- cluelessperson [~cluelessp@unaffiliated/cluelessperson] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:30 < tromp_> it claims to, but they're not there 08:42 -!- igno_peverell 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#bitcoin-wizards 12:33 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:33 -!- LeMiner [LeMiner@unaffiliated/leminer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:40 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 12:46 < stevenroose> gmaxwell, just as a note, it looks like the message about the unknown deployment is shown whenever I start the node, I just didn't notice it before. so yeah it's probably the old one 12:47 < gmaxwell> stevenroose: yep. I have a proposal to be able to configure ignoring demployments, e.g. ignorebip9=bit:height but the notice on testnet is actually a nice test soo... 12:51 -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-944bc443.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:52 -!- hashtag [~hashtagg_@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:52 -!- Firescar96 [~nchinda2@dhcp-18-111-33-244.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:56 -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-944bc443.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:00 < stevenroose> gmaxwell, on that regard, does bitcoin core allow you to opt-out of signaling deployments? Or is it not possible for a miner to run v0.13.1+ if it does not support segwit? 13:00 < gmaxwell> stevenroose: it's quite hard to signal segwit in fact. 13:00 < gmaxwell> you have to replace/upgrade/modify your mining software. 13:00 < gmaxwell> it doesn't happen by default. 13:01 < stevenroose> oh 13:01 < stevenroose> gmaxwell, then maybe a --signalbip9=bit would be quite desirable :) 13:08 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 13:08 -!- lmatteis [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dqwwewksfubwtbak] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 13:09 -!- voyager_ [~voyager@ip70-185-195-78.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:09 -!- voyager_ [~voyager@ip70-185-195-78.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:11 -!- hashtag [~hashtagg_@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:12 -!- JackH [~laptop@217.149.140.177] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:16 -!- shesek [~shesek@bzq-84-110-53-149.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:20 < waxwing> fluffypony: is all that rainbow paper stuff written by an AI? :) 13:22 -!- Sosumi [~Leon@bl10-113-190.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Bye] 13:26 -!- igno_peverell [~igno_pev@gateway/tor-sasl/ignopeverell/x-86067662] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:26 -!- bliljerk101 [~bliljerk1@2601:547:c503:ee34:3e15:c2ff:fed0:8f50] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:29 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtagg_@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:31 -!- hashtag [~hashtagg_@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:33 -!- skeuomorf [~skeuomorf@unaffiliated/skeuomorf] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:33 -!- jtimon [~quassel@70.30.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:35 -!- bliljerk101 [~bliljerk1@2601:547:c503:ee34:3e15:c2ff:fed0:8f50] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 13:36 -!- bliljerk101 [~bliljerk1@c-71-60-0-241.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:48 -!- Piper-Off is now known as Monthrect 14:07 -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-944bc443.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:09 -!- marcoagner [~marcoagne@179.177.242.185] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:09 -!- spinza [~spin@196.212.164.26] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:12 -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-944bc443.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:14 -!- droark [~droark@c-24-22-123-27.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:18 -!- skeuomorf [~skeuomorf@unaffiliated/skeuomorf] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:27 -!- jtimon [~quassel@70.30.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:36 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@12.130.117.36] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:01 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:01 < luke-jr> stevenroose: what you signal is decided by your mining software 15:08 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@12.130.117.36] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:14 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:16 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@12.130.117.36] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:19 -!- MaxSan [~one@109.202.107.5] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:25 -!- stiell [~stian@fsf/member/stiell] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:25 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: :)] 15:29 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:29 -!- skeuomorf [~skeuomorf@unaffiliated/skeuomorf] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:35 -!- dispel [uid200860@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xvvoaihraoxcdgry] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:35 -!- stiell [~stian@fsf/member/stiell] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:44 -!- stiell [~stian@fsf/member/stiell] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:50 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@12.130.117.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:57 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:57 < stevenroose> luke-jr, oh. I haven't looked into mining protocols for a long time. I thought that getblocktemplate would contains the version number in the template 15:57 -!- stiell [~stian@fsf/member/stiell] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:57 < sipa> stevenroose: GBT needed extensions for segwit 15:58 < sipa> so if the GBT client does not support segwit, it cannot produce segwit commitments. 15:58 < stevenroose> that makes sense 15:58 < sipa> actually, that doesn't matter here, this is about signalling, not producing witness blocks 15:59 < stevenroose> well, but it doesn't make sense to signal if your client is not able to create the blocks once it's activated 15:59 < sipa> still, the GBT client is the one using the data in the GBT response... even though GBT reports what version to use, the client must use it 16:00 < stevenroose> sipa, oh, you mean that GBT reports a version number, but the GBT user can still change it in the blocks it submits? 16:00 < sipa> stevenroose: actually, it does. if your non-segwit miner is using a 0.13.1 full node, you can signal segwit, and have it safely activated 16:00 < stevenroose> but does bitcoin-core gbt set the SW bit by default? 16:00 < sipa> stevenroose: you won't build segwit blocks yourself, but you'll still validate segwit rules, and won't build on top of segwit-invalid blocks 16:01 < sipa> it does only if the client support segwit, i think 16:01 < sipa> but i think we should change that 16:01 -!- wasi [~wasi@gateway/tor-sasl/wasi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:01 -!- wasi [~wasi@gateway/tor-sasl/wasi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:03 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 16:05 < luke-jr> stevenroose: what sipa said, but note that the client is expected to set and unset bits itself 16:05 < sipa> s/expected/allowed/ i would say, but agree otherwise :) 16:07 < gmaxwell> sipa: it's already changed in master, and there is a PR open for the backport for 0.14.1 16:07 < sipa> oops, i haven't been paying attention it seems 16:08 -!- afk11_ 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