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10:20 < andytoshi> is an atomic swap primitive sufficient to have a federated peg? (where the federation is trusted in both directions vs elements where the sidechain has consensus rules about pegins)
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10:21 < andytoshi> both parties send to 2-of-2 outputs locktimed 200/300 blocks in the future, after 100 blocks the federation starts the swap
10:22 < kanzure> https://github.com/ignopeverell/grin/blob/master/doc/intro.md
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10:44 < Chris_Stewart_5> andytoshi: I can't think of a reason why this wouldn't work off of the top of my head
10:44 < Chris_Stewart_5> Seems to be the same security model
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11:31 < Chris_Stewart_5> andytoshi: Why would the federation need to wait to start the swap? Couldn't we do it in the next block?
11:36 < andytoshi> Chris_Stewart_5: because the federation is at risk of its coins getting reorged out
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12:01 < Chris_Stewart_5> andytoshi: Ok, now do you need a federation? Or can you just offer an ICO style thing were people offer to be a liquidity provider for the sidechain
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12:04 < Chris_Stewart_5> nvm
12:10 < kanzure> andytoshi: someone asking for ed25519 https://www.reddit.com/r/Mimblewimble/comments/60hukc/mimblewimble_intro_doc/df6luh0/
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12:12 < bsm117532> Because libsecp256k1 is faster, isn't it?  ;-)
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12:14 < fluffypony> X25519 all the things
12:15 < fluffypony> inb4 PoS mandated by law: "[Parliament] Notes that some implementations of DLT technology such as the Bitcoin blockchain have extremely energy intensive computational requirements and that, therefore, research should be encouraged to find ways of mining and verification that are energy efficient, especially for large scale uses."
12:17 < sipa> bsm117532: it's similar in speed
12:18 < bsm117532> Your coin is exactly as secure as the economic input being used to secure it.  You can't magically get security against someone who is willing to bribe former key holders or systems administrators.  IOW this blahblah about energy intensiveness is garbage.  That's WHY bitcoin is secure.
12:19 < fluffypony> bsm117532: context - https://news.bitcoin.com/the-eu-now-targeting-unpermissioned-blockchains/
12:20 < waxwing> is there a non-bitcoin.com link perchance? :)
12:20 < gmaxwell> use archive.is in those cases.
12:20 < bsm117532> *facepalm*
12:20 < bsm117532> People will learn this lesson slowly and painfully.
12:21 < gmaxwell> bsm117532: when comparing highly optimized implementations.. if you can use the endomorphism, which will be clear of possible patent concerns in a couple years. (though most users of 25519 don't use highly optimized implementations, because thy're a PITA to use, undocumented, etc)
12:22 < gmaxwell> secp256k1 is also moderately easier to deal with due to the cofactor of 1.
12:22 < fluffypony> waxwing: http://archive.is/5nbrf
12:22 < so> proof of war power is so efficient
12:22 < fluffypony> every time so speaks I think it's a bot
12:23 < bsm117532> It's so a bot.
12:23  * so could a bot do this?
12:23 < fluffypony> a highly advanced one could
12:23 < fluffypony> probably powered by Enterprise Ethereum
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12:31 < so> Enterprise NaCl
12:32 < waxwing> quite confusing that NaCl is also used for google 'native client'
12:33 < so> that's misdirection
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12:50 < fluffypony> lol
12:50 < fluffypony> Enterprise SUPERCOP
12:50 < fluffypony> SUPERCOrPorate
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13:13 < kanzure> should my r and s values always be the same given the same inputs to be signed?
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13:23 < sipa> kanzure: in what system?
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13:23 < kanzure> secp256k1, bitcoin stuff
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13:24 < andytoshi-web> if you use the same R with same key and same message, youll get the same s. if you use same R and get a different s youre in big trouble. this will occur if anything youre signing changes
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13:30 < JackH> anyone checked this out? https://github.com/tromp/cuckoo
13:30 < JackH> I dont know why, but this PoW sounds super cool to me! The fact its memory based is really sweet. No advantage to anyone
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13:30 < kanzure> JackH: read the logs.
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13:32 < JackH> hmm october 12th is last time it was discussed
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13:32 < sipa> i believe MW uses it as PoW
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13:34 < JackH> yeah thats how I ended up on the github repo for it
13:35 < sipa> im not convinced that being memory based on itself is such a nice feature
13:35 < JackH> doesnt seem like anyone claimed those bounties yet for the speed optimization
13:35 < JackH> how come?
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13:35 < sipa> EquiHash is also memory based, but has permitted massive non-trivial optimization
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13:36 < JackH> this PoW seems rather simple though
13:36 < sipa> yes, that's a good feature :)
13:37 < sipa> but i'd be more confortablr with a simple CPU based one
13:37 < sipa> s/CPU/computation/
13:37 < JackH> CPU meaning non-ASIC CPU bound or just CPU based like sha
13:38 < phantomcircuit> JackH, the issue with memory bound pow functions is that memory bandwidth is limited by the connector
13:38 < sipa> they're the same thing
13:38 < phantomcircuit> so if you can get dram with a small amount of custom logic
13:38 < phantomcircuit> you can get something significantly faster
13:39 < phantomcircuit> and that's something with even less public access than an ASIC
13:39 < TD-Linux> a HBM-based ASIC would be killer for this
13:39 < JackH> HBM?
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13:40 < TD-Linux> dram flip-chipped onto a carrier with the cpu
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13:40 < phantomcircuit> TD-Linux, yeah something like that
13:40 < TD-Linux> if not a custom dram solution.. that would be very difficult but a huge payoff
13:41 < TD-Linux> building fast logic on a dram process is pretty hard
13:41 < phantomcircuit> TD-Linux, the thing is access to modern dram fabs is basically impossible
13:41 < TD-Linux> yup. if someone managed it, it would be guaranteed monopoly
13:52 < andytoshi-web> cuckoo is bound by mem latency vs equihash which is bound by bandwidth
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13:53 < bsm117532> bandwidth is parallelizable.  Latency is likely to remain constant for a long time to come.
13:56 < gmaxwell> bsm117532: TD-Linux just pointed out one example of why it isn't.
13:56 < gmaxwell> esp with TSV, you basically just have the dram plopped right on top of the logic with an ultra fast crazy bandwidth interconnect.
13:58 < bsm117532> I'm just saying that latency is a measure of physical distance, and there are fundamental physical limits there.  Bandwidth has no such limit...
13:59 < sipa> of course, if you double the amount of chips/surface area/power usage/material, you'll get double the hashrate
13:59 < sipa> that's not what PoW is trying to prevent
13:59 < sipa> it is trying to prevent non-trivial optimizations that are only available to some parties
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15:11 < mappum> Has there been any work on PoW algorithms bottlenecked by something like disk throughput or latency?
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15:15 < tromp_> i dont see soft forking pow change work
15:15 < gmaxwell> http://bitcoin.sipa.be/bech32/demo/demo.html
15:18 < tromp_> the altpow would need to be solved first, and encoded in the coinbase, before the sha256 on the header can be solved
15:19 < tromp_> although ayou could enforce that some fraction of coinbase is paid to altpow solver, the sha256 miners will generally be separate from the altpow solvers
15:21 < tromp_> so the sha256 miners still have the final say?!
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15:25 < mappum> but sha256 miners would just use a header+altpow solution solved by someone else, so the altpow miners choose which txs are getting committed in the block, right?
15:26 < tromp_> no, if altpow solution ends up in coinbase, it affects tx merkle root, so altpow cannot commit to tx selection
15:27 < tromp_> altpow can only commit to more static fields, like prevblockhash
15:27 < kanzure> you could have it commit to everything except however it ends up in the final block, and make it a rule to check its value against whole transaction set minus whatever
15:28 < mappum> ^
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15:31 < tromp_> hmm, i'm a little ignorant on this.... does segwit witness data end up affecting merkle tree root?
15:31 < kanzure> .title https://lists.launchpad.net/mimblewimble/msg00086.html
15:31 < yoleaux> Lightning in Scriptless Scripts : Mailing list archive : mimblewimble team in Launchpad
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15:31 < sipa> tromp_: yes
15:31 < sipa> tromp_: otherwise you can trivially DoS the system by taking a valid block, and modifying the witnesses to be invalid before relay
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15:32 < tromp_> that's what i thought. so it's hard to stick altpow solution someplace that doesnt affect header
15:32 < kanzure> you'd have to commit to a 'virtual header' that everyone has to reconstruct :(
15:33 < gmaxwell> tromp_: huh, you just stick it out side and then altpow using nodes fetch blocks by an altpow id rather than the blockhash.
15:34 < gmaxwell> though to prevent progress ideally you don't have a scheme where both pows can be independantly ground.
15:34 < kanzure> and a follow-up already https://www.reddit.com/r/Mimblewimble/comments/60jozc/lightning_in_scriptless_script_lightning_for/
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15:34 < kanzure> "Having a trusted timestamping party reveal discrete logarithms of pre-chosen points every $interval, and conditioning transactions on knowledge of these discrete logs."
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15:36 < tromp_> kanazure,gmaxwell: ok, so there are ways to let altpow commit to tx tree... taking choice away from sha256 miners
15:38 < tromp_> there's another problem i see though
15:39 < tromp_> altpow would need its own difficulty targetting
15:39 < tromp_> but there's no reliable data on how much time was spent on altpow vs time spent on sha256
15:40 < tromp_> timestamps are too unreliable on scale of single blocks, and over 2016 blocks you only see how much time was spent on both together?!
15:42 < kanzure> https://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/milan/fast-difficulty-adjustment/
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15:45 < tromp_> that doesn't address the proble. sure you have semi-accurate stats over 50-100 blocks; but you still dont know how it was shared between altpow and sha256
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16:05 < phantomcircuit> "Decoders MUST accept both uppercase and lowercase strings, but not mixed case."
16:05 < phantomcircuit> why?
16:06 < gmaxwell> Why not mixed case?
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16:06 < gmaxwell> Because it's an extra way that a user can make an error which can be trivally detected. E.g. sometimes the upper case of one character looks like the lower case of a different character.
16:08 < sipa> the chance of accepting arbitrary text as an address is massively lower if you reject mixed case
16:10 < tromp_> it's even lower if you require alternate letters to be upper and lower:-)
16:10 < phantomcircuit> ok
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16:20 < parazyd> in
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16:26 < gmaxwell> tromp_: yes, but the likelyhood of users jumping off buildings is much more likely with that requirement. :P
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17:42 < JackH> http://myriadcoin.org/en/home what is the downside to having multiple algo's for solving blocks like this coin?
17:42 < JackH> Wouldn this solve our attack problem once and for all?
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17:44 < JackH> or at least until ASIC's gets developed for each method
17:44 < sipa> JackH: you only need to attack one
17:47 < JackH> but thats only if we serialise them
17:48 < JackH> what if no method could do more than 5 in a row, for example
17:49 < sipa> you're just needlessly complicating the problem while making it harder to analyse
17:49 < sipa> every problem in that class will at some point be economical to produce an ASIC for
17:50 < sipa> and the extra complexity at that point just introduced more unfairness
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17:50 < JackH> but in this case any PoW is bound to fail
17:52 < JackH> If all PoW's end with a few miners after the most a decade, then a cycle mechanism has to be the easiest way to keep centralization out
17:52 < sipa> i don't see ASICs as a failure
17:52 < sipa> they're just the natural evolution for everything
17:53 < sipa> it's a failure when they require technology that's only available to few
17:53 < JackH> but the side effect is that pow chains have limited lifetime
17:53 < sipa> ?
17:53 < JackH> lets say 3 chinese miners right now agree to attack the chain, with their asics. we will have to switch pow, right?
17:54 < JackH> I agree with the other you said btw, with that the hardware needs to be as easy to obtain as possible for everyone
17:55 < sipa> yes
17:55 < sipa> we'll have to switch pow then, so what?
17:55 < sipa> that's a really bad situation
17:55 < sipa> but it's not something that more complex algorithms can solve
17:56 < JackH> no but they give an extended lifetime
17:56 < JackH> we must assume human nature will eventually form large asic mining entities
17:56 < sipa> they'll just fail much earlier
17:57 < sipa> any nontrivial design has had many massively faster algorithms found that were not intended
17:57 < sipa> _that_ is failure
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17:59 < JackH> we still dont know if the current design is going to fail, from a pow sha256 point of view
17:59 < JackH> and if we will end up switching or not
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18:00 < sipa> i don't understand what you're arguing for
18:00 < sipa> everything you're saying is contradicted by history
18:00 < sipa> yes, SHA256 mining may fail, and we may need to switch to something else at some point - but hopefully not
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18:00 < JackH> I am arguing for if there is a merit in adding rules to running multiple pow's instead of one pow as a way to do, well, pow
18:01 < sipa> there is no example anywhere of a more complicated algorithm leading to better results
18:01 < sipa> the only goal is preventing inequality
18:01 < JackH> I agree
18:01 < sipa> there is no goal of preventing ASICs, because you _can't_
18:01 < JackH> I agree as well
18:01 < sipa> complexity is almost directly introducing inequality
18:01 < sipa> the simplest algorithm is the best, as the optimizations will be obvious to everyone
18:02 < sipa> even something as simple as SHA256 mining has nontrivial optimizations (look at asicboost patents, for example), which are thankfully mild
18:02 < JackH> possibly, but say we did sha256 and scrypt there is the odd chance there would be a big scrypt miner and a big sha256 instead of a big sha256 only
18:02 < sipa> no, someone would just find a weird and crazy way the two interact and exploit it
18:02 < sipa> the idea is nice, but it _does not_ work
18:03 < JackH> ah now you are thinking adversarial
18:03 < JackH> my point is, making it hard to dominate
18:03 < JackH> without risking anything else
18:03 < sipa> go away.
18:03 < JackH> lol
18:04 < sipa> what you're saying is utter nonsense, and it's been proven over and over again
18:04 < sipa> we can't even prevent nontrivial optimizations in SHA256, how would you do that in something that literally just adds extra complexity to it
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18:07 < JackH> I didnt think about it this way to begin with
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18:08 < sipa> combining multiple algorithms is pure snakeoil, and its only use is hiding the problems with it
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18:11 < JackH> yeah you are right
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18:38 < CubicEarth> sipa: my fear with one algo has just been risk if it ever failed... if there were two or three in rotation, a break in one wouldn't be quite as bad. I know that s brake in SHA256 would be pretty bad for the whole world, banks, IoT, etc.
18:39 < CubicEarth> I really so no advantage from a governance perspective though... simplicity is king in PoW
18:40 < sipa> PoW requires partial preimage resistance
18:40 < sipa> that's a very property for hash algorithms to break
18:41 < sipa> MD5 would be perfectly fine to use today for PoW
18:42 < CubicEarth> :)
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18:44 < sipa> *uncommon property
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18:46 < CubicEarth> I so find the talk of switching PoW a little bit strange, the miners are miners because they want to mine, not because there near some SHA265 deposits in the earth's crust. They do have massive capital investment in ASIC's, but if we moved to some GPU thing, the same miners could fill there data centers with those. I think Bitcoin may be on the brink of shaking the 'longest-chain' thing
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18:50 < CubicEarth> It's also interesting ... if people are willing to move to a new PoW, clearly that part of the community is reconsidering the absolute value of the most work. People are realizing there are other ways to organize and get the results they want. In that context, it may be time to reconsider the size of the block subsidy!
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18:50 < CubicEarth> 12.5 BTC seems a little bit high...
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