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03:08 < waxwing> andytosh2: in that mailing list thing, step 1 has challenge as H(P1+P2||R1+R2||tx) - what's t? since both should be able to compute the challenge, i wonder whether it should be something like 'xG' instead of 'tx'?
03:08 < waxwing> oh just realised, you probably mean the transaction you're going to sign? :)
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05:13 < waxwing> really cool idea; just tweak the nonce by the "hash" (point) and it's verifiable that it'll get revealed
05:13 < waxwing> does this interact in any way with the shenanigans needed to make aggregated schnorr safe?
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07:46 < bsm117532> WRT the RSA timelock puzzle andytoshi has been discussing for scriptless timelocks...the assumption that makes that work is that computation is trapped at ~4GHz by serial operations on CMOS silicon.
07:47 -!- andytosh2 is now known as andytoshi
07:47 < bsm117532> But there exist other technologies such as GaAs and InP semiconductors, etched with electron beam lithography.  It's expensive, but if you're protecting a billion dollar asset with an RSA timelock puzzle, suddenly throwing a few million at a custom chip is economically viable.
07:47 < andytoshi> waxwing: haha, sorry, yes, i meant "tx" as english for "transaction"
07:47 < kanzure> e-beam lithography is pretty common
07:47 < andytoshi> my bad
07:48 < bsm117532> Here's an article from a number of years ago indicating you can get 500GHz with GaAs: http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-500GHz-Processor-62852.shtml
07:48 < kanzure> bunch of my pals have e-beams sitting around at home
07:48 < kanzure> in future everyone should have mandatory electron beam
07:49 < andytoshi> waxwing: i'm unsure what you mean by the nonce thing, are you suggesting making two nonces having a known difference so that when two signatures are produced they expose the key?
07:49 < bsm117532> kanzure: Did I mention a timelock on a billion dollar asset or not?  No one is going to do this in their basement.
07:49 < kanzure> bsm117532: everyone should do it in their basement
07:49 < bsm117532> hahaaa
07:50 < kanzure> bsm117532: also they should do gene therapy in their basement http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/faq/news/
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07:57 < bsm117532> https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/02/intel-forges-ahead-to-10nm-will-move-away-from-silicon-at-7nm/
08:01 < bsm117532> And carbon nanotube chips: https://www.ibm.com/blogs/research/2016/12/cnt-chips-iedm/
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08:05 < bsm117532> Looks like carbon nanotube devices will have ~5x improved transistor switching speed: https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/01/carbon-nanotube-transistors-push-up-against-quantum-uncertainty-limits/
08:05 < bsm117532> So, ~5x faster at solving timelock puzzles.
08:08 < bsm117532> It's critically important for timelocks in the 2 Party Fair Exchange problem (aka atomic cross-chain swaps, lightning channel closure, etc) that different timelocks created by adversarial parties can be sequentially ordered.
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08:29 < danrobinson> Re: timelocking (and the options mentioned by andytoshi in https://www.reddit.com/r/Mimblewimble/comments/60jozc/lightning_in_scriptless_script_lightning_for/df6x8u5/)--is there any way to have timelock puzzles that are gradually unlocked by the blockchain's proof of work? I.e. could you pose a puzzle that would be solveable once the proof-of-work for the Nth block is revealed
08:30 < bsm117532> Only via consensus rule.  andytoshi's timelock puzzles are intended to be hidden from the consensus layer.
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09:22 < danrobinson> Yeah, that would obviously defeat the purpose. I'm wondering if there's some way for the proof-of-work to cumulatively solve some shared puzzle (like increasingly close approximate discrete logs of a point) that individual puzzles could depend on. But doesn't seem possible when I think about it.
09:35 < andytoshi> danrobinson: i'm not aware of such a scheme. i had an argument that it is impossible a few years ago but iddo broke it ... lemme see if i can find the logs
09:35 < bsm117532> danrobinson: one thin you could do is make the PoW be identical to the timelock -- the brute forcing of a RSA puzzle.
09:36 < bsm117532> But, as this is not parallizeable...it doesn't really represent "work" anymore.
09:37 < bsm117532> A different kind of key-brute-forcing that *is* parallelizeable would work...
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09:40 < bsm117532> Let the PoW be a brute-force keyspace search for an n-bit key with somepropertyorother.  The key length n becomes the difficulty.  It's straightforward to tie something to the *next* key that gets brute forced.  But how could you do a timelock dependent on the 2nd or nth key to be brute-forced?
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09:45 < waxwing> andytoshi: i was more just wondering about the whole related-key thing in general, i.e. the defences you guys set up against them in the aggregated schnorr design. i didn't have any specific attack in mind.
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12:34 < tromp_> is this work https://blog.chain.com/hidden-in-plain-sight-transacting-privately-on-a-blockchain-835ab75c01cb#.p5rs9y5nu independent of Blockstream's work on confidential assets?
12:37 < bsm117532> No, it *uses* CT but additionally adds an "issuance asset range proof" to hide the asset, for their multi-asset chains.
12:37 < kanzure> tromp_: that's a contentious question
12:37 < kanzure> tromp_: not my place to splurge about context
12:38 < kanzure> s/contentious/some less strong word
12:38 < sipa> bsm117532: we submitted a paper to FC17 months ago that describes confidential assets
12:38 < tromp_> i never heard of this Chain,, Inc. company before, but I've seen one of its members, oleganza, in discussions here
12:39 < bsm117532> sipa: link?
12:39 < kanzure> bsm117532: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/Confidential%20assets%20-%202017.pdf
12:39 < sipa> ^
12:39 < bsm117532> thx
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12:42 < oleganza> tromp_: yeah, we worked on our version independently (since early last year). It is based on CT scheme and extended to multiple assets and confidential issuances. Naming clash is completely incidental.
12:43 < tromp_> thx for elaborating
12:43 < tromp_> one notable difference is choice of curve
12:43 < oleganza> In fact we learned that Blockstream has some paper in the works on that subject only this January
12:44 < oleganza> yeah, for unrelated reasons we had switched to ed25519 for normal signatures early in 2016 and for consistency used the same in CA
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12:46 < oleganza> although cofactor makes borromean ring signature more hairy, unfortunately: https://github.com/chain/chain/blob/ca2/docs/protocol/specifications/ca.md#create-borromean-ring-signature (see the 4-bit masking all over the place)
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12:56 < oleganza> s/incidental/coincidental/  (sorry for my poor english skills)
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14:20 < kallewoof> @tromp_ I've been looking at Cuckoo Cycle (https://github.com/tromp/cuckoo) and am a bit confused about how it would actually be used as a PoW. Would it be used as the nonce for a "regular" PoW with its own 0 bits difficulty target? It seems like a single Cuckoo Cycle solution takes a long time, which doesn't seem feasible. Esp considering work return latency.
14:22 < tromp_> no, you would apply a sha256 or similar difficulty filter on top of it
14:23 < tromp_> you'd run each cuckoo cycle instance in maybe 10 seconds
14:23 < kallewoof> But each instance doesn't give a solution, right?
14:23 < tromp_> no, only about 1 in 42
14:24 < tromp_> this is just like how equihash pow works in zcash
14:25 < tromp_> except there the probability of a solution is much closer to 1 than 1/42
14:25 < kallewoof> So 420 seconds per attempt with a sha256 of the solve params + block header. The sha256 difficulty filter would have to be very low, as in, once every 2 attempts, for a 10 min/block chain, or am I missing something?
14:25 < tromp_> yes, very low indeed
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14:26 < waxwing> article by rusty about andytoshi 's thing: https://medium.com/@rusty_lightning/decorrelation-of-lightning-payments-7b6579db96b0#.fyr2d110j
14:27 < tromp_> you might have a million miners each doing 60 attemps in 10 mins
14:27 < tromp_> finding 60000000/42 = 1428571 solutions
14:28 < tromp_> so difficulty is around that
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14:28 < kallewoof> Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying. :)
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15:56 < andytoshi> i'm surprised the lightning decorrelation thing is not making a bigger splash on reddit
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16:14 < bsm1175321> andytoshi: You expect too much of reddit.  I'm pretty sure the average IQ over there is in the single digits.
16:15 < fluffypony> bsm117532: nonsense, redditors are all, on average, STEM post-grads in the 140s, 150s
16:15 < fluffypony> you can tell by their writing
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16:16 < bsm1175321> I've been thinking a lot about off-chain mixing networks...seems to me like this idea could be applied there too...
16:16 < bsm1175321> Also I should pay more attention to lightning,...
16:17 < fluffypony> and TumbleBit
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16:20 < bsm1175321> "it doesn't need tricky stuff like measuring packet timing or expiry and payment amounts. We will eventually end up in an arms race tackling those things" ... it's exactly packet timing I'm worried about.
16:21 < bsm1175321> But this can be defeated by inserting junk traffic and timing delays.
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16:21 < bsm1175321> Does lightning currently use any junk traffic or timing delays in routing?
16:22 < sipa> afaik the sphinx routing does
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16:24 < bsm1175321> I've been thinking of doing an analysis of the probability distributions of junk traffic and timing delays, so as to maximize the anonymity set...
16:24 < bsm1175321> I'll look at sphinx, thanks sipa
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--- Log closed Wed Mar 22 00:00:05 2017