--- Log opened Sat Apr 01 00:00:14 2017
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03:00 < Eliel> hmmh... I think adding a Proof of Stake component to mining could be done as a soft fork with a BIP9-like activation procedure and even better, it would be an UASF soft fork where miners don't really have an effective veto.
03:02 < Eliel> After that, the PoS components could be used to measure fork acceptance among holders too rather than just miners
03:04 < Eliel> for example, you could pick 5 random bitcoin holders for each block and require a signature from each of them for a block to be valid.
03:06 < Eliel> it could also function as a method for UASF style soft-forks in the future
03:09 < Eliel> you could roll such an update out to users and have them start signing blocks and only active the actual validity rules when most blocks have been ending up receiving valid signatures for a difficulty period.
03:11 < Eliel> if miners go on a strike, that could perhaps be pre-empted with a PoW algorithm change and/or difficulty reset if we don't see enough block for a while right after the activation.
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07:57 < bsm1175321> Proof of Steak is a circular argument and leads to centralization.  Since there are no longer any economic inputs to the system (coin creation is inflationary), the only way to make money is by taking Steak from others, and the net assets are flowing from holders to steakers.
07:57 < bsm1175321> This has been argued to death and I don't want to see it ever in Bitcoin.
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07:58 < bsm1175321> https://blog.sldx.com/whats-wrong-with-proof-of-stake-77d4f370be15
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08:22 < jcorgan> In addition, one of the problems with the idea of "it's been to long since a block, let's reset difficulty lower" is that it makes it near trivial for a sybil attacker to make your node accept its alternative chain
08:22 < jcorgan> *too long
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12:31 < Eliel> bsm1175321: that article only argues, correctly, that Proof of Stake alone won't work. That doesn't, however, address what I was suggesting, which is a combination of PoW and PoS.
12:33 < Eliel> jcorgan: the difficulty reset would naturally be only active for a limited time after the activation of the new validity rules.
12:36 < sipa> Eliel: i have never seen a viable scheme to combine the two that under adverserial conditions doesn't degrade to purely PoW
12:37 < Eliel> sipa: I don't see how that'd be a problem for what I was proposing.
12:38 < sipa> i mean that i have never seen anything that accomplishes anything that PoW alone does not
12:39 < Eliel> what I proposed would accomplish a method of signaling that involves holders as well as miners.
12:39 < sipa> and what if miners disagree with holders?
12:40 < Eliel> then I'd expect it's interpreted as if they had quit mining.
12:40 < sipa> then why do you have miners at all?
12:41 < Eliel> because, you need PoW for long term integrity.
12:41 < sipa> PoW is useless if it can be ignored
12:42 < Eliel> it'll still be required for validity
12:42 < sipa> but you say that holders can overrule miners
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12:43 < Eliel> yes, if there's an overwhelming consensus that they should be overruled... although, looks like he left.
12:44 < gmaxwell> if that works securely, why do you need miners?
12:44 < Eliel> it won't work securely in the long term.
12:45 < Eliel> hence the need for PoW
12:48 < Eliel> anyway, given sufficient consensus, holders can overrule miners even now. They just need a working way to measure consensus that's secure long enough that it can't practically be attacked.
12:49 < Eliel> What I'm proposing is just making it explicit
12:56 < kanzure> "On the impossibility of supersized machines" https://philpapers.org/rec/GAROTI-3
12:57 < Eliel> The security of Bitcoin is dependant on non-mining nodes also validating the blocks. This is currently only done implicitly. What I'm proposing would merely add some explicit "I agree that this block is valid" statements from randomly selected holders.
12:57 < gmaxwell> Eliel: so what happens if these holders make inconsistent claims?
12:58 < Eliel> then the block is not valid and next block will have a different list of randomly selected holders.
12:59 < Eliel> alternatively, you could randomly pick something like 10 holders and allow for some of them to be missing
13:00 < bsm1175321> It's bad enough that Satoshi gave us "economic game theory" as a consensus mechanism.  It's not nearly as solid as more traditional algorithms like PAXOS.  The solution is not to add more rules -- it just creates a more complex game that is more difficult to analyze.
13:01 < bsm1175321> But if you want to analyze it, the way to do it is to write down an actual maximizing function.  You quickly realize that the existence of external assets can cause any such economic maximization function to flip sign, and become a *minimization* function.
13:02 < bsm1175321> (Under the right circumstances, one wants to reduce one's holdings of a given asset)
13:03 < bsm1175321> No mutation of the "stake" rules changes this fact.
13:04 < Eliel> I don't see how the stake rules being explicit rather than implicit makes for much of a difference
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15:56 < gmaxwell> petertodd: what do you think of the concept of a fraud bond:  Imagine some high value locktimed UTXOs exists, and I write a transaction a that is valid if and only if block X is in the chain which gives away gives away these coins to fees (but I cannot do anything except give them away to fees until the locktime expires). If I give you this transaction, it is evidence that a block is invalid.
16:00 < gmaxwell> It's not proof-- but it's perhaps persusaive enough to get to shut down and require manual intervention to accept that block.
16:03 < kanzure> well there's his fidelity bond stuff https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=146307.0
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16:04 < kanzure> oh i see, persuasive because why hasn't someone taken those fees.
16:05 < kanzure> doesn't this only show something interesting if your inputs are referencing some censored outputs or something?
16:07 < gmaxwell> kanzure: it requires a way to make a transaction which is only good if block X is in the chain. Which means an additional opcode, though a reaonably cheap one, or cooperation with block X's author (kinda defeats the purpose). Or something clever that I haven't thought of yet.
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17:16 < MaxSan> block 459962 0x20000004
17:16 < MaxSan> what is that?
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18:02 < bsm1175321> I think this discussion is evidence that decentralization has utterly failed.  A handful of people are having a power war over the rules Bitcoin runs by, and most of us don't have any say.
18:02 < bsm1175321> Maybe it's time to go back to the drawing board...
18:03 < bsm1175321> An idea I've always liked is what I call "mining at the edges" aka transaction-level mining, where all mining occurs at the bottom of the Merkle tree, instead of at the top.
18:04 < bsm1175321> It's easy enough to add the difficulty attached to mined leaves of the Merkle tree, and compute the effective difficulty for the Merkle root.
18:06 < bsm1175321> One way to do that is that *instead* of paying fees, your txn must be accompanied by a certain amount of work on a mined hash.
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18:07 < bsm1175321> People would outsource that service to get their txns accepted, but the value of the outsourcing would *solely* be the hash itself and not (necessarily) the network rules or any decision about chain consensus.
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18:10 < bsm1175321> The txn submitter would decide the network rules and how/when/where it gets submitted to the network.  Imagine miners as service providers to whom I provide my transaction, and they return it to me with a PoW hash.
18:12 < gmaxwell> because you know progress and fastest wins all are totally not concerns?
18:12 < bsm1175321> It's totally straightforward to hide the network data from the miner -- I just provide them an opaque hash which they grind against a nonce to get the PoW.  I don't give them the entire transaction, or even the network it's on.
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18:17 < bsm1175321> gmaxwell: see my work on braids.  Merging blocks with non-conflicting transactions is fairly trivial.  I think this solves the progress and fastest-wins concern.
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18:49 < bramc> Hey everybody. I posted about the TXO bitfield idea to bitcoin-dev but disappointingly it hasn't gotten any response so far
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18:56 < kanzure> probably because everyone unsubscribed from the mailing list
18:59 < bsm1175321> bramc: either it's a good idea, or you sent it on a Friday night :-P
18:59 < bsm1175321> bramc: I've thought quite a bit about txns which come with proofs about their inputs.  Problem is that the proofs are much larger than the txn itself...
19:00 < bsm1175321> That said, there are such serious advantages to such an approach that I think it's worth serious consideration.
19:00 < bsm1175321> In particular, I'm interested in "sharding" -- such that a node can keep a defined subset of the blockchain data, which could be enabled by such an approach.
19:03  * bsm1175321 reads bramc's email again.
19:03 < bramc> Sharding sucks
19:04 < bsm1175321> A simple RLL encoding would let you compactly indicate you've dropped the first 8 years of history too...
19:04 < bsm1175321> bramc: why?
19:04 < bramc> Because it causes individual nodes to not be able to validate or upload the whole history
19:04 < bsm1175321> IMHO it's the only way forward for scaling.  Everyone having everything does not scale.
19:05 < bramc> You can make everyone have everything when the amount of 'everything' is under control
19:05 < bsm1175321> We made progress on algorithms not by banging on O(n) things but by moving to log(n) and O(1)...
19:06 < bsm1175321> ZKP's are an existence proof that O(n) things can be proven in O(1) space.
19:06 < bsm1175321> We just need better algorithms...
19:06 < bramc> There's plenty of scaling possibility which can be done using simple techniques, like the bitfield proposal I made yesterday :-P
19:07 < bsm1175321> I like it, and it's compatible with sharding :-P
19:08 < bsm1175321> bramc: "Because it causes individual nodes to not be able to validate or upload the whole history" -- I'd rather depend on economic incentives for keeping history, than for deciding consensus...
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19:09 < bsm1175321> Frankly I'd run a full-history node.  Any serious business would.
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