--- Log opened Tue Apr 04 00:00:17 2017 00:07 -!- alan_ [~alan@flyingarm.bar] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:07 -!- alan_ is now known as Guest81363 00:08 -!- Guest81363 is now known as Alanius 00:19 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:25 -!- thom [xD@haxx.pw] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:26 -!- BashCo_ [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:29 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:51 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:51 -!- BashCo_ [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:53 -!- face [~face@mail.hmel.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:55 -!- CubicEarthh [~cubiceart@2002:329f:7e15:0:60ce:f23c:9215:59ff] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:55 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:57 -!- CubicEarthh 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02:40 < kanzure> here are some old logs about extension blocks https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/63b8lb/purse_extension_blocks_ready_for_liftoff/dft4nj1/?context=1 02:43 -!- Creeper [jamezz@gateway/shell/panicbnc/x-djhxqbdfglksesiz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:02 -!- BashCo_ [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:03 -!- rockhouse [~rockhouse@h54110.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:04 -!- rockhouse [~rockhouse@h54110.upc-h.chello.nl] has quit [Changing host] 03:04 -!- rockhouse [~rockhouse@unaffiliated/rockhouse] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:06 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:16 -!- voyager_ [~voyager@ip68-13-250-112.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:17 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:18 -!- BashCo_ [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:24 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has 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ZZZzzz...] 13:59 -!- molz_ [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:59 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:02 -!- mol [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:05 -!- danrobinson [~danrobins@2604:2000:e080:d400:140f:cf78:1eb7:150e] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:06 -!- talmai [~T@c-24-147-97-55.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: mining] 14:10 -!- danrobinson [~danrobins@2604:2000:e080:d400:140f:cf78:1eb7:150e] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:15 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:26 -!- Guest42514 [~quassel@78.10.231.191] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:26 -!- Guest57628 [uid136497@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gzqadbnrzqujsivu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:27 -!- Guest57628 is now known as fibonacci 14:28 -!- rmwb [~rmwb@2001:df0:ce:1601:501:4836:dabb:2120] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:32 -!- tromp__ [~tromp@rtc35-020.rentec.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:34 -!- tromp__ [~tromp@rtc35-020.rentec.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:39 -!- danrobinson [~danrobins@2604:2000:e080:d400:596f:b220:2426:7439] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:48 -!- oleganza [~oleganza@52.119.113.96] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:49 -!- talmai [~T@c-24-147-97-55.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:50 < oleganza> What was the rationale for the "chain code" entropy in BIP32? Is it to allow sharing a pubkey by just cutting off the chain code to prevent access to the child keys? 14:50 -!- smartcontracts1 [605243c6@2606:2e00:8003:1:225:90ff:feb5:1e30] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:50 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:51 -!- atgreen [~green@38.104.156.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:52 -!- harrymm [~wayne@104.237.91.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:58 < gmaxwell> oleganza: "sharing a pubkey" ... as every transaction in the network does? Without the chaincode bip32 provides no public unlinkability between addresses, which was kind of the point. 14:59 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: :)] 15:00 -!- smartcontracts1 [605243c6@2606:2e00:8003:1:225:90ff:feb5:1e30] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:03 -!- talmai [~T@c-24-147-97-55.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: mining] 15:10 -!- harrymm [~wayne@185.43.110.39] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:10 -!- harrymm [~wayne@185.43.110.39] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:10 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:11 -!- harrymm [~wayne@185.43.110.39] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:12 < sipa> gmaxwell: that's not true 15:13 < sipa> as long as you'd never use a parent key as a key on the network in its own right, you could still safely derive other keys from it 15:13 < gmaxwell> I think we're suffering from a different understanding of oleg's question. 15:13 < sipa> perhaps :) 15:14 < gmaxwell> By chain code entropy I was understanding it as asking why things were P+H(index)G or likewise. 15:15 < sipa> I am understanding it as why is the derivation Pchild_1 = Pparent + H(Pparent || chaincode || i)*G, and not just Pchild_i = Pparent + H(Pparent || i)*G 15:16 < sipa> the latter would also be unlinkable 15:16 < sipa> s long as Pparent is never published 15:17 < sipa> the answer is that I didn't like the reduction in entropy from repeated hashing, and wanted to compensate for that 15:17 < gmaxwell> Fair enough. 15:18 < gmaxwell> Though there is another advantage: I can give you a master pubkey, and reveal that a pair is linked, without revealing any other linkages. 15:19 < sipa> It was also inspired by armory's earlier scheme, which did something similar 15:19 < gmaxwell> Using a singnature over the discrete log differences. 15:19 < sipa> gmaxwell: ha, indeed. that was not by design though 15:19 -!- MaxSan [~one@109.202.107.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:20 < gmaxwell> maybe not by your design. but if you look being able to prove a linkage was proposed by alan and I back yonder though I'm not sure if it was before BIP32 itself it was certantly before it was widely used. 15:20 < gmaxwell> (as an alternative to the x509 crud) 15:26 -!- rmwb [~rmwb@2001:df0:ce:1601:501:4836:dabb:2120] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:31 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:35 -!- harrymm [~wayne@185.43.110.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:42 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-240-13-215-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:43 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-240-13-215-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:52 -!- kenshi84 [~kenshi84@i223-217-226-163.s41.a008.ap.plala.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:53 -!- kenshi84 [~kenshi84@i220-221-169-205.s41.a008.ap.plala.or.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:54 -!- harrymm [~wayne@45.56.152.36] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:58 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:58 -!- rmwb [~rmwb@2001:df0:ce:1601:501:4836:dabb:2120] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:59 -!- belcher_ [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:01 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:06 -!- bsm117532 [~mcelrath@135.84.167.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:14 < oleganza> sipa: that's exactly what i meant. Sorry for unclear question, gmaxwell. 16:14 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iaihvgqxvlujslus] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 16:15 < oleganza> sipa: so assuming we can just avoid publishing the parent, another reason for chain code is to throw in some extra entropy. Could you explain why do you worry about "reduction of entropy" through repeated hashing. What's the theoretical risk there? 16:16 < sipa> oleganza: it's not a rational concern 16:16 < oleganza> Do you mean that hashing "down" into hierarchy reduces entropy, or hashing "horizontally" (from one parent, using different indices) reduces entropy? 16:17 < sipa> down 16:18 < sipa> the output of a hash function is restricted, so multiple parent keys would (at given child index) result in the same child key occasionally 16:18 < sipa> if the hash function is perfect, you get a factor 1-1/e reduction in keyspace from one hashing step 16:19 < sipa> further hashing steps (each with their own fixed index) reduce it further, but very slowly 16:19 < adiabat> you can hash a *bunch* of times before that becomes a problem :) 16:19 < sipa> i'm aware 16:19 < sipa> it's not a real concern 16:19 < adiabat> bip 44 is what, 5 steps I think 16:19 < adiabat> but yeah, in that sense, sha256d is weaker than sha256 16:20 < sipa> you need astronomical numbers of hashing steps before this becomes a measurable problem 16:22 < oleganza> so it's then a security margin against imperfection of the hash function and avoiding "telegramming" (== being defensive about making needlessly less safe decisions in the name of marginal performance gains)? 16:23 < sipa> eh, unsure 16:23 < sipa> as gmaxwell points out, it has advantages 16:24 < sipa> though i think the original reason for including it (at least from my perspective) is not relevant 16:25 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [] 16:25 < oleganza> gmaxwell: ah, i see the point about proving the linkage of a pair. 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