--- Log opened Thu Apr 20 00:00:31 2017
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00:02 < zaus> How does Bitcoin overcome the DLS88 impossibility result?
00:02 < zaus> (DLS88 = consensus in the presence of partial synchrony)
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00:04 < gmaxwell> zaus: bitcoin doesn't achieve consensus, it just becomes less likely to reorganize over time (given certian more or less plausable assumptions)
00:05 < gmaxwell> it's always possible that at any point martians show up with a more work chain which we just never heard about because we haven't had an internet connection to them... and they blow away the bitcoin history.
00:05 < gmaxwell> (at least from a pure analysis of how the system works perspective)
00:06 < zaus> (if martians have that much computational power, they would also break any authenticated byzantine agreement)
00:06 < zaus> thanks gmaxwell
00:07 < gmaxwell> they don't need that much processing power, certantly not enough to break any ordinary digital signature.
00:07 < gmaxwell> they could have just recieved a copy of bitcoin back when it started and been mining it along just slightly faster than all of us; but partitioned.
00:07 < zaus> oh.. I misunderstood you - that makes sense!
00:08 < zaus> gmaxwell: would bitcoin fit in the DLS partially sync network?
00:09 < gmaxwell> zaus: also wrt byzantine consensus-- basically any scheme that assumes even weak synchronicity of distributed elements is not very physically or pratically realistic... since just achieving synchronious operation itself basically requires byzantine agreement, or equipment that doesn't really look much like anything any of us use for computing. :P  (e.g. whats the worst case bound on the time for
00:09 < gmaxwell> a message between you and I?)
00:10 < gmaxwell> No, Bitcoin 'works' (does what it does, which is not consensus in the formal sense normally considered in the lit) with very very low assumptions about any kind of synchronicity at all.  Which is good because those assumptions don't map really well to actual distributed systems.
00:10 < gmaxwell> (at least not ones that span multiple administrative domains)
00:12 < gmaxwell> e.g. you imagine bitcoin implemented before electronic communications with messages being carried very unreliably by ships at sea ... it would still 'work'-- though you would have to wait an awful long time to be reasonably confident your transactions were settled. :)
00:12 < zaus> ha! that makes sense
00:13 < gmaxwell> you can think of bitcoin as taking all the hard parts like knowing how long a partition might last, and then dumping them on the user (who then promptly ignores them) by never making any promise to not go back an arbritary amount.
00:14 < gmaxwell> in practice, so far, this seems to work out more or less okay.  it helps that in a lot of domains Bitcoin's non-cryptographic competition is really slow to achieve any kind of irreversability. (e.g. international wire transfers take days,  things like credit card payments aren't functionally irreversable for months)
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00:18 < zaus> hey gmaxwell, thanks a lot for the explanation
00:19 < zaus> I think there is an implicit assumption of time in Bitcoin which is basically: on expectation, proof of work takes 10 minutes
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00:20 < gmaxwell> zaus: kinda but it's very very very vague.
00:21 < gmaxwell> it doesn't "take 10 minutes" -- it has some computational difficulty which is set by the consensus rules, and expressed in the block header.  Each block gives its own idea of the time and there is very little constraint on these time values.
00:21 < gmaxwell> every 2016 blocks (two weeks) the difficulty is adjusted to fix the rate based on the times in the blocks.
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00:22 < gmaxwell> But the only forced relationship that value has with "actual time" is that each node will (temporarily) reject a block if its claimed time is more than two hours in the future from the nodes own personal ideal of the time.
00:22 < gmaxwell> s/ideal/idea/
00:22 < gmaxwell> Which means that nodes could pretty much set their clocks via sundial and a alamanic and a vague idea of their location.
00:22 < zaus> (would this count as synchronized clocks?)
00:23 < zaus> (weakly)
00:23 < gmaxwell> The purpose of this limit is not really related to the consensus algorithim, but rather to remove an incentive to misbehave on the part of miners.
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00:25 < gmaxwell> e.g. you could eliminate it completely and the system would work fine even the miners clocks were not synchronized at all... so long as the miners were honest enough to not purposefully advance the their clocks forward in order to play out the system's inflation faster.
00:25 < gmaxwell> the interblock interval would not be ten minutes but roughly the hashpower weighed average of the '10 minutes' per the miners clock frequency.
00:26 < gmaxwell> but it doesn't need to be 10 minutes to work-- if the interblock interval starts getting close to the communication delays the system becomes much more inefficient and starts taking (potentially much) longer to converge, but it keeps on working
00:29 < gmaxwell> zaus: some people (e.g. amiller) have proposed ways of controlling the difficulty for systems like this that make no reference to time at all.-- e.g. you can use the existance of forks in the chain to tell you to slow down blocks. (though this kind of design seems like it would result in the greatest geographic concentration of participants ramping up the speed to the point where outsiders cannot
00:30 < gmaxwell>  participate equally--- the system becomes unfair when the interval is not insigificant compared to communication delays).
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00:31 < gmaxwell> So I think fundimentally in the bitcoin-like consensus there is no requirement for synchronicity of any form.  ... though the pratical system has a very very loose time connection which is really just there to control inflation.
00:31 < gmaxwell> and mostly miners are just trusted to do that right, but the the rules are strong enough that they can't profit greatly from cheating it... but not so strong that an actual block has ever been rejected due to that 2hr rule.
00:32 < gmaxwell> (and does a rule which never executes exist? :P)
00:32  * gmaxwell goodnight
00:43 < zaus> have a good night gmaxwell, I really appreciate your time :)
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02:20 < fluffypony> andytoshi: https://lists.launchpad.net/mimblewimble/msg00106.html
02:20 < fluffypony> "- Better retargeting algo (I'm thinking Digishield now)."
02:20  * fluffypony grimaces
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05:06 < andytoshi> lol, oh, i didn't see that. if he mentions it again i'll complain at him
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05:16 < bsm1175321> Hmmm maybe I should throw my hat in the ring on the topic of retargeting algos.  Just about everything ever done on this topic is downright stupid.
05:17 < sipa> I think Bitcoin's retarget algorithm is decent. If you really want to adjust every block, multiply with the 2016th root of the ratio between 2 weeks and the actual time the last 2016 blocks took
05:18 < bsm1175321> Bitcoin's retargeting algorithm only works because hashrate has been monotonically increasing.
05:18 < sipa> ?
05:18 < sipa> it has gone down on multiple occasions
05:19 < bsm1175321> Hasn't gone down enough to enable hashrate attacks that altcoins have seen...
05:19 < bsm1175321> And the timescale of adjustments is long enough to be annoying to short attention span attackers.
05:19 < sipa> if your cryptocurrency doesn't have nearly all hashrate available for that PoW function, it is vulnerable regardless
05:19 < sipa> PoW algorithms don't change that
05:20 < sipa> s/PoW/retarget/
05:20 < andytoshi> also, "it's only worked because it's disincentivized attackers" means "it's working" :)
05:20 < bsm1175321> Why not retarget once a year then?
05:21 < bsm1175321> Inserting random time constants and arguing over them is not good design.
05:21 < sipa> because of annoying variance in block rate
05:22 < sipa> in an economically relevant setting, your cryptocurrency has all the PoW it can get, and there won't be sharp changes in hashrate
05:22 < andytoshi> bsm1175321: if the interval is too wide then you're not reacting to hashpower changes quickly enough and your blockrate goes all over the place. if it's too small then you're going to get bad measurements because of the uncertainty principle
05:22 < andytoshi> the "random number" is empirically in a good spot, i'm sure it's not optimal, but i see no pressing reason anyone would tweak it
05:22 < sipa> trying to accomodate for fast change is opening up other attacks
05:23 < andytoshi> if you're complaining about the linear feedback, bitcoin's system is very simple and obviously not going to overshoot (though it might not converge as fast as is theoretically possible)
05:24 < sipa> i've simulated a few of the "fancy" retarget algorithms, and they're almost all easily brought into a regime where they oscillate across multiple orders of magnitude
05:31 < bsm1175321> It's a reality that any PoW function that MW chooses will be initially mined using GPUs, and therefore hashrate slewing and 51% attacks will be possible due to the existence of GPU farms.  The reason Bitcoin avoids this fate is that by the time anyone really noticed it, it had already moved to ASICs.
05:31 < bsm1175321> Can Lord Voldemort give us ASICs on day 1?  ;-)
05:32 < sipa> s/MW/grin/
05:32 < bsm1175321> In the absence of ASICs, MW absolutely needs a more sophisticated retargeting algo.
05:32 < sipa> s/MW/grin/
05:32 < bsm1175321> Sure :-P
05:33 < andytoshi> thanx sipa
05:33 < andytoshi> bsm1175321: MW is an abstract technology that also includes elements (which has no PoW :)), it has nothing to do with PoW
05:33 < bsm1175321> Is there to be a MW/grin fork?
05:33 < sipa> ?
05:34 < sipa> MW is just technology
05:34 < bsm1175321> sipa: you're differentiating... why?
05:34 < andytoshi> bsm1175321: there are already multiple implementations of MW that work in completely different ways
05:34 < bsm1175321> andytoshi: what are the others?
05:34 < sipa> bsm1175321: is there to be a blockchain/bitcoin fork?
05:35 < bsm1175321> sipa: the banks are trying real hard.
05:35 < andytoshi> bsm1175321: elements supports MW in the current codebase (tho there isn't a chain running with it yet afaik, i suppose anyone who wants to stand up a functionary can start one..)
05:35 < sipa> bsm1175321: ok, better example
05:35 < sipa> bsm1175321: is there to be a (merkle tree commiting to transactions)/bitcoin fork?
05:35 < bsm1175321> sipa: I see what you're getting at, no explanation needed
05:35 < sipa> ok!
05:36 < andytoshi> you just create normal CT transactions with empty scriptpubkeys and use a 1-bit rangeproof on a OP_RETURN as the "kernel"
05:36 < sipa> andytoshi: that sounds like just slightly less terrible than counterparty and bitcoin
05:36 < sipa> :p
05:37 < andytoshi> sipa: lol, i specifically added support to elements for this
05:37 < bsm1175321> andytoshi: neat, is it public yet?
05:37 < andytoshi> maybe we can do 0-bit rangeproofs?
05:37 < andytoshi> bsm1175321: yes, i'm checking if it's on the master branch or what..
05:37 < andytoshi> bsm1175321: well, nobody has written a wallet that produces these transactions
05:38 < andytoshi> but the blockchain support for it is public
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05:39 < bsm1175321> I see...
05:39 < andytoshi> https://github.com/ElementsProject/elements/commit/4e49c307b03b2a037d875601d5e330a80e727e52 yeah, it's on the main elements-0.13 branch
05:39 < sipa> andytoshi: and no support in the node software to do the fancy pruning
05:40 < andytoshi> sipa: ah, yeah, that too
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05:42 < sipa> "details"
05:43 < andytoshi> :)
05:55 < andytoshi> i hope to get some of the wallet stuff done this summer
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06:38 < luke-jr> [12:35:19] <andytoshi> bsm1175321: elements supports MW in the current codebase <-- it does? :O
06:41 < andytoshi> luke-jr: not elements alpha, which would unfortunately require a hf to support it. but yes, elements very nearly supported MW-style transactions from day one
06:42 < andytoshi> see above, you can just use scriptless outputs and they'll behave the same as MW outputs. problem was that without scriptSigs it was possible to malleate the outputs to add scripts (e.g. add OP_RETURN and burn somebody's coins)
06:42 < andytoshi> the fix for that was dead simple, have the rangeproofs sign the scriptpubkeys
06:44 < andytoshi> had there not been this problem, i (or somebody) probably would've hammered out a simple wallet to demo this, so that we could do a "lol we supported mimblewimble since before it was invented" blog post. alas :)
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06:52 < luke-jr> XD
06:53 < luke-jr> andytoshi: but surely not the "prune forever, don't even download" style MW?
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06:55 < andytoshi> luke-jr: well, if you recognize MW transactions, and you're fed the IBD data in the right way (there are "pegs" into and out of MW-style outputs that you have to be aware of) you can do this
06:55 < andytoshi> it would require some fairly serious node support
06:56 < luke-jr> does this mean MW would have no value in an ext.block?
06:56 < andytoshi> well, CT without MW is a huge pain in the ass, and you need CT to do the conversions so transparently
06:57 < andytoshi> s/pain in the ass/resource hog/
06:57 < andytoshi> what i described basically is an ext block, but the ext block contents are mixed in with the main block ones
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11:24 < hongkonger> Hello
11:29 < hongkonger> Anyone here?
11:31 < sipa> never
11:34 < kanzure> agreed
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11:40 < hongkonger> So I was having a concept on bitcoin sub-units for mass adoption in East Asia
11:41 < hongkonger> 0.1 mBTC will be called Victoria, 0.01mBTC will be called Meiji, 0.001mBTC will be called GuangMui
11:41 < hongkonger> Current Price: 1 Victoria is ~1HKD, 1 Meiji ~1.4 JPY, 1 GuangMui ~1.4 KRW
11:43 < hongkonger> By doing this, it is easy for non-tech-savy people to understand the approximate price of Bitcoin
11:44 < sipa> #bitcoin
11:44 < hongkonger> sipa: are you a bot?
11:44 < sipa> no
11:44 < arubi> some say...
11:44 < kanzure> i might be.
11:44 < sipa> i have circumstancial evidence that kanzure is a bot
11:45 < bsm117532> I've met him in person.  He's definitely a bot.
11:45 < hongkonger> So is this a good idea? If it passes, East Asia would gain mass adoption
11:45 < bsm117532> hongkonger: the #bitcoin channel is a better place for that topic.
11:46 < hongkonger> got it
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16:31 < stonecoldpat> I've been reading https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0050.mediawiki and looking at the resolution which "kicked unpatched nodes off the network". I'm tempted to call this a hard-fork - i'm wondering if someone can tell me why it might not be?
16:32 < stonecoldpat> (im not trying to troll - i'm looking into past soft forks and this caught my eye)
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16:34 < sipa> sure
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16:38 < stonecoldpat> cool thanks sipa :) i've been working on this diagram https://www.dropbox.com/s/4mrl4a9kju8lu5l/forks.pdf?dl=0 if anyone knows of a fork that i've missed let me know?
16:38 < gmaxwell> stonecoldpat: it's a hardfork but BIP50 is relally inaccurate.
16:39 < gmaxwell> stonecoldpat: nodes prior to 0.8 were all inconsistent with themselves, so it was a latent hardfork that existed since day 1.
16:40 < gmaxwell> stonecoldpat: softforks are not forks at all (normally) everything if fully compatible, no alternatives chains are created, etc.
16:40 < gmaxwell> I think yout graph is shit.
16:42 < stonecoldpat> gmaxwell: Yeah I read about the inconsistency. The graph is a work in progress... lol
16:42 < gmaxwell> how many times per _day_ does ethereum have a 5 block reorg? but you list "accidental split" on bitcoin for a 5 block reorg?  then draw one year of ethereum history against almost three years of bitcoin? lame sauce.
16:43 < gmaxwell> then don't even point out where eth splitting created an irreconcilable chain fork which persists to this day which caused well over 100 grand in losses for users (Exchanges that lost funds due to replay)--  something which as of yet has never happened in bitcoin.
16:45 < stonecoldpat> I've split the graph into two rows because it wouldn't fit into a page - I can see how it might make it look like a direct comparison. In the text I've explained the emergency of classic and the need for replay.
16:45 < stonecoldpat> emergence*
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16:46 < MaxSan> lol
16:47 < MaxSan> it is misleading from the way the graphics are laid out
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16:48 < MaxSan> the time frames scopes at first glance appear to be over the same time frame
16:48 < MaxSan> like the width of the boxes
16:48 < MaxSan> i aint sure what to call it
16:48 < MaxSan> you cant stretch a time because you have no room for text in an infographic its misleading as hell
16:49 < MaxSan> again, soft forks are not the same as chain splits, unless they split the chain...
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16:50 < MaxSan> stonecoldpat: ^^
16:50 < MaxSan> same applies for hardforks actually but by nature, that is what they do.
16:52 < stonecoldpat> At least I've learnt this evening i'm not good at diagrams. I'll get that fixed :)
16:52 < gmaxwell> :P
16:52 < MaxSan> :D
16:56 < andytoshi> ignoring the spacing things that others have pointed out, i think it needs to be clearer that a hardfork is a "flag day, you must upgrade!" whereas the other things are not .. so you could run a bitcoin node from 8 years ago (assuming you had a lot of patience and the 0.8 leveldb bug didn't nail you) and still come up to speed
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16:58 < andytoshi> also the lengths of these forks ought to be mentioned somehow (good luck :) that's even harder to diagram), stuff like the DAO where there has been a permanent split in which $50M was directly re-assigned ownership by the network and tons of people lost money trying to adapt to
16:58 < andytoshi> vs, say, all the listed softforks which afaik were 0-length "forks"
16:58 < MaxSan> that would be an interesting metric to visualise actually
16:59 < MaxSan> even for temporary chain splits of a few blocks with BAU with orphaning blocks
17:00 < MaxSan> you would need an actual data set though to read over historical events from all the block tips.. from both chains..
17:00 < andytoshi> as i said, good luck :). you've got much different time periods, then the block intervals are different, and even serious fork lengths pale in comparison to the total timeframe
17:00 < MaxSan> which isnt an easy task esp for ethereum
17:00 < andytoshi> and yeah, idk if anybody has all the necessary data
17:00 < MaxSan> im going to guess no :P
17:03 < stonecoldpat> I was hoping the soft/hard fork icon would represent "activation day" and then I was using "accidental split" if there was a consequence - although in the case of thedao that isn't accidental.
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17:12 < andytoshi> maybe you could represent hardforks as a change in the graph direction whereas softforks widen it (indicating there are extra things you can do, though if you wanna keep going straight ahead nobody is stopping you)
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21:37 < zaus> what do people think of systems like algorand or snow white?
21:44 < Taek> They can be innovative in terms of traditional consensus but seem to lack a deeper understanding of Bitcoin's incentive model
21:45 < Taek> and therefore get lost talking about things like "percentage of honest participants", when that's shallow and incomplete security assumption
21:46 < zaus> is it because they are phrased in PoS settings?
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21:51 < zaus> Taek: ^
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21:52 < Taek> I think it's because the authors come from an academic background, and Bitcoin's incentive model doesn't have any base in background
21:52 < Taek> so they use the academic version of consensus as the base, and completely miss the incentive stuff
21:54 < Taek> *there's no academic base exploring Bitcoin's incentive model
22:01 < zaus> thanks
22:02 < bsm1175321> If your security model involves the word "trust", you're fucked from the get-go.  Everyone can be bribed.  Bitcoin makes that incentive very explicit.
22:02 < bsm1175321> Virtually all academic literature assumes *something* that cannot be bribed, and is therefore, deeply flawed for real-world applications.
22:03 < zaus> bsm117532: I think bitcoin assumes that 50% of the power cannot be bribed
22:03 < bsm1175321> That 50% has an existing economic incentive.  Your bribe has to be bigger.
22:04 < zaus> bsm117532: same for proof of stake systems
22:05 < bsm1175321> Your argument is circular, since the bribe is internal to the system.
22:05 < bsm1175321> You can't bribe with more money than exists in the system.  You CAN bribe with external assets.
22:06 < bsm1175321> PoS is a closed system -- there's no flow of value into the system.
22:07 < gmaxwell> zaus: have you read the PoS paper on bitcoin.ninja?
22:07 < gmaxwell> if not, go do that, it's not that long, and you'll save people here a bunch of time rehasing arguments that have been rehashed 1001 times already.
22:08 < zaus> I have read a few PoS paper but I am not sure which one you refer to
22:08  * bsm1175321 is really fucking tired of PoS and wishes it would just die and go away.
22:09 < bsm1175321> https://blog.sldx.com/whats-wrong-with-proof-of-stake-77d4f370be15
22:10 < zaus> will look into this
22:11 < zaus> alright, if the problem is the internal fixed currency - then what if we peg PoS strategy with external resources
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22:12 < bsm1175321> pegs are very difficult to implement in practice and have a number of real failure modes.
22:12 < zaus> so for example, one could build Algorand/SnowWhite introducing new resources in the system
22:12 < bsm1175321> If one asset spikes, the peg fails if there aren't enough assets of the other type to cover.
22:12 < bsm1175321> What is this "resource"?
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22:13 < midnightmagic> bsm1175321: <3 (re PoS)
22:13 < zaus> bsm117532: I am not sure, whatever is provable
22:13 < zaus> storage (?)
22:14 < bsm1175321> The only provable, economic asset is a brute-forced hash function.  A second example has not been provided yet.  (Though many are hopeful that storage will be the second example)
22:14 < zaus> energy (? not sure)
22:14 < zaus> I see
22:14 < bsm1175321> The brute forced hash function is a proxy for energy
22:15 < bsm1175321> Anything else is just bits, and has zero marginal cost.
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--- Log closed Fri Apr 21 00:00:32 2017