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[~abpa@96-82-80-28-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:56 < stevenroose> gmaxwell, thinking past segwit (script versioning is supposed to make more complex soft forks easier, right?), do you see a Confidential Transactions softfork a reality? If so in what time frame? 08:56 -!- rmwb [~rmwb@2001:df0:ce:1601:c087:797d:c542:8543] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:57 < stevenroose> s/reality/possibility 08:59 < sipa> stevenroose: unfortunately, segwit script versioning doesn't help us for deploying CT, as CT is not a script change 09:00 < stevenroose> oh yeah right 09:00 < stevenroose> it changes amount values 09:00 < stevenroose> stupid me 09:00 < sipa> and it is certainly technically doable as a softfork, but it would require some sort of extension block mechanism, with all its downsides 09:00 < stevenroose> sipa, how does alpha do it? 09:00 < stevenroose> natively, I suppose? 09:00 < sipa> yes 09:00 < stevenroose> grmpf 09:01 < kanzure> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2016-January/012194.html 09:01 < sipa> also, the resource costs are really high 09:01 < sipa> not impossible, as it's just a constant factor (for bandwidth, cpu, and utxo set size) 09:02 -!- rmwb [~rmwb@2001:df0:ce:1601:c087:797d:c542:8543] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:03 < Eliel_> wouldn't something like mimblewimble work better for that purpose? 09:04 < sipa> sure, except mimblewimble (at least of you want its scaling advantages) very fundamentally different from how bitcoin works 09:04 < Eliel_> I was wondering yesterday if that'd be soft forkable in as an extension block. 09:04 < sipa> sure 09:05 < sipa> but it would really be a totally independent system 09:05 < stevenroose> it's possible as a sidechain, right? 09:05 < sipa> who cares 09:05 < Eliel_> It'd have the nice property that you could eventually prune everything that happened in a mimblewimble "space" as all that remains would be witness data. 09:06 < andytoshi> stevenroose: yes, if sidechains are possible then a mw sidechain is possible 09:06 < kanzure> here are some thoughts about extension blocks and why it changes security model https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/63b8lb/purse_extension_blocks_ready_for_liftoff/dft4nj1/?context=3 09:06 < kanzure> especially from http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2017-01-06.log 09:08 < stevenroose> sipa, well, considering we have yet to see a sidechain mechanism that might actually work in a distributed way, but if so, a dual system with MW and Bitcoin seems pretty ok.. AFAIK, MW doesn't have full scripting, so the original chain keeps having value 09:08 < stevenroose> while most value-transferring transactions and lightning channels will probably better live in the MW sidechain 09:08 < kanzure> the independence of an extension block system has been insufficiently elaborated on-- if you have a system where you require all the bitcoin nodes to validate everything (preserving the current security properties) then it's basically a bandwidth requirement increase, and if you have only miners attesting to a hash of the state of some other system, then you might as well have non-pow atte... 09:09 < kanzure> ...station (like just multisig authorization e.g. like any multisig escrow into an off-chain ledger) anyway. 09:09 < stevenroose> it'd be similar to an extension block system though 09:09 < sipa> stevenroose: until we have full sidechain validation through snarks, i don't think sidechains help at all 09:09 < sipa> stevenroose: they're a means for experimenting with new technology without introducing a new currency first 09:09 < kanzure> i thought the slowness of the proof generators are the problems with snarks, not the validation? 09:09 < sipa> but they don't result on a security model that i think is acceptable 09:10 -!- caleb1 [32b74932@gateway/web/frut.as/ip.50.183.73.50] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:10 < sipa> for production usage 09:10 < kanzure> right, and with many of these security model reductions, you could easily argue for equivalent security of e.g. just multisig escrow fund lock to off-chain ledger which will look eerily similar to extension block or sidechain or whatever-- in the sense that not all the bitcoin nodes are participating in the immense bandwidth requirement increase. 09:11 -!- kristofferR [~kristoffe@91.37-191-173.fiber.lynet.no] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:11 < kanzure> partioning a network and having high-performance only in one particular bubble-universe is not a particularly impressive magic trick 09:11 < sipa> extension blocks don't suffer from the sidechain security reduction, but they bring their own problems (need network wide enforcement and all costs it brings) 09:12 < kanzure> yes but didn't the recent extension block proposals propose not to have network-wide enforcement? thereby being self-defeating.. 09:13 < sipa> no clue 09:13 < kanzure> it was like optional inclusion of an extra commitment 09:13 < kanzure> and nodes don't follow along (it's a separate system) 09:14 < sipa> well, no clue 09:15 < sipa> stevenroose: as a conservative estimate, CT would be a 15-30x bandwidth increase, 1.5x-2x UTXO size increase, 30x-60x cpu increase 09:16 < stevenroose> a bitcoin hardfork is getting increasingly tempting lately 09:16 < sipa> for the same transaction volume 09:16 < sipa> i don't see why 09:16 < stevenroose> sipa, that's with 100% CT, right? 09:16 < sipa> of course 09:17 < sipa> but if it isn't 100% or close, you might as well not do it 09:17 < stevenroose> sipa, because every innovation being proposed requires jumping through 100 hoops to get in included as a soft fork 09:17 < sipa> huh 09:17 < sipa> i disagree 09:18 < sipa> if we knew of a way to do CT in a way that wasn't so expensive, i would suggsst doing it as an extension block 09:18 < andytoshi> stevenroose: there are waay more hoops to jump through for a hardfork, the required upgrades are by definition a superset of those required for a sf 09:18 < adlai> stevenroose: the whole point of those hoops is that technological progress should not undo the ethical progress made by an opt-in system 09:19 < adlai> hard forks are quite equivalent to majority tyranny 09:19 < sipa> the only advantage a HF CT has over a EB SF CT is that you wouldn't have a delay when moving from the CT side to the normal side 09:19 < stevenroose> andytoshi, adlai, I totally agree with that, but the extra technological difficulty for deployments are a problem 09:20 < sipa> stevenroose: i think the technical problems are purely scaling 09:20 < sipa> which we really don't have an answer for 09:20 < adlai> sipa: wouldn't there also be constant factors in performance? (making the HF version more efficient) 09:20 < sipa> the rest is enginrering 09:20 < stevenroose> implementing or understanding bitcoin from scratch gets increasingly more impossible 09:20 < sipa> adlai: i don't think so 09:20 < adlai> neat 09:20 < adlai> i guess yes, it falls under engineering 09:21 < stevenroose> usage of the coinbase outputs, the coinbase input script bloat, separate data locations for EBs or witness data 09:21 < sipa> stevenroose: meh 09:21 < sipa> stevenroose: have you ever read a technical spec? 09:21 < sipa> try reading the spec for h264 video codec 09:21 < sipa> or ASN.1 09:22 < stevenroose> sipa, it is meh, indeed :p it's not critical, but it's tempting to remove all the built-up bloat 09:22 < stevenroose> all I'm saying 09:22 < stevenroose> haha, I tried ASN.1 09:22 < sipa> stevenroose: i think the bloat is insignificant to other parts of the system 09:23 < stevenroose> the native Golang implementation of ASN.1 doesn't support several of the data types (like bit strings and OPTIONS). and it only does DER & BER 09:23 < andytoshi> stevenroose: the position of some commitment in a merkle tree is really not that interesting, there are a million "ugly" things in bitcoin that are uglier and many of them require actual thought to understand the consequences of 09:23 < stevenroose> andytoshi, like? (curious) 09:24 < kanzure> like how to avoid overt asicboost interference 09:24 < kanzure> excuse me, covert asicboost interference 09:24 < kanzure> my bad. 09:25 < bsm117532> stevenroose: or look at all the bloat in the x86 processor instruction set. Yeah, it's ugly as sin. But it has utterly defeated all the hard-fork (RISC) architectures because of the very serious advantage of backwards-compatibility. 09:25 < sipa> or how to design a cache that has good performance for block validation, but deals correctly with the case of pre-BIP30 tx overwriting 09:25 * bsm117532 bemoans the end of the ALPHA line of processors... 09:25 < andytoshi> stevenroose: the format of numbers in bitcoin script, say. quadratic hashing. the eccentric behaviour of the sighash flags. the weird encoding of the difficulty (and consequently weird set of representable values). the time-warp attack. hash trees that are potentially malleable (but accidentally aren't because they hash data that itself already hash collision-resistant hashes in it). etc etc etc 09:26 < sipa> or how to design an efficient algorithm for constructing blocks from a mempool that gets close to best fee ince while supporting CPFP, without massively slowing down in a reorg 09:27 < sipa> how to design fast block relay protocols that don't require trusted network identities 09:31 < sipa> ok, andytoshi's examples are better 09:31 < stevenroose> :) 09:31 < sipa> mine are more design challenges going forward 09:32 < sipa> though perhaps we should include the unsolved problems in this list 09:32 < stevenroose> they're more implementation-oriented than protocol 09:32 < sipa> yes, but implementations do need fast relay on a network scale, or propagation delay in the network may suffer 09:33 < sipa> and do need efficient verification for similar reasons 09:33 < sipa> and so on 09:34 -!- dabura667 [uid43070@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-aocymgdomyotykez] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 09:46 -!- UnrealLife1 [~UnrealLif@2001:16a2:9c5:8700:5482:aa8d:d01d:3ee8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:47 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@79.98.72.176] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:47 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@79.98.72.176] has quit [Changing host] 09:47 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] 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