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[~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:18 -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-944bc443.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:18 < bsm1175321> sipa, gmaxwell from my reading of the accumulator literature this morning (mostly https://eprint.iacr.org/2008/539.pdf), it seems to me that such accumulators not only require a trusted setup, but also require an authority possessing a secret key to create the accumulator. 05:19 < bsm1175321> While witness information and proofs can be updated with public information, the required use of this secret key to update the accumulator would seem to veto its use in a crypto-currency like setup. 05:20 < bsm1175321> Is my understanding here correct? 05:20 -!- danrobinson [~danrobins@2604:2000:e080:d400:c9ca:c4db:f415:34c] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:22 -!- danrobinson [~danrobins@2604:2000:e080:d400:c9ca:c4db:f415:34c] has quit [Client Quit] 05:23 -!- thrmo [~thrmo@unaffiliated/thrmo] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:27 -!- mol [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:28 -!- kristofferR [~kristoffe@75.37-191-170.fiber.lynet.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:28 -!- kristoff_ [~kristoffe@75.37-191-170.fiber.lynet.no] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:30 < kanzure> bsm1175321: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/security/cryptography/accumulators/ 05:30 -!- moli_ [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:31 -!- moli_ [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:34 -!- mol [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 05:46 -!- bedeho [~bedeho@91.90-149-204.nextgentel.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:49 -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-944bc443.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:51 -!- mol [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:54 -!- moli_ [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:56 -!- metric [~metric@199.127.226.246] has quit [Quit: No 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[~DrNo@10.101.198.146.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:54 -!- DrNo [~DrNo@10.101.198.146.dyn.plus.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:58 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:02 -!- zakalwe [~cz@host86-185-234-55.range86-185.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:05 < sdaftuar> sipa: regarding the rolling utxo set hash proposal: it seems like a goal is to make the hash be implementation agnostic, if i understand correctly? 11:06 < sdaftuar> sipa: if that's right, how do you think about the optimization to exclude provably unspendable outputs from the utxo set? that seems like the sort of implementation-specific detail you'd want to avoid, maybe? 11:07 <@sipa> sdaftuar: ha, good point! 11:07 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [-o sipa] by sipa 11:08 < sipa> sdaftuar: well, not just implementation agnostic, but also efficient to maintain 11:08 < sipa> but indeed - its specification would depend on what unspendable outputs are considered pruned 11:09 < sdaftuar> right... so far, that rule is pretty simple, at least, so you could just hardcode that into a spec. seems slightly ugly to have to do that though 11:11 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:12 < gmaxwell> sdaftuar: well we made that rule simple with the idea in mind that it could be normative. 11:13 < gmaxwell> (the OP_RETURN rule) 11:13 < sdaftuar> gmaxwell: looks like there's also a max script size check 11:14 < gmaxwell> sdaftuar: oh do we also use that to prevent putting them in the UTXO set? well thats a good idea that we do. 11:14 < sipa> bool IsUnspendable() const 11:14 < sipa> { 11:14 < sipa> return (size() > 0 && *begin() == OP_RETURN) || (size() > MAX_SCRIPT_SIZE); 11:14 < sdaftuar> agreed! 11:14 < sipa> } 11:16 < bsm117532> One might check that the OP_RETURN exists in a block...making such pruning undesirable, but that's only relevant if one can prove presence or absence from the rolling utxo set hash. 11:17 < sipa> bsm1175321: ... what? 11:18 -!- DrNo [~DrNo@10.101.198.146.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:18 < bsm117532> Excluding OP_RETURNS from the UTXO set commitment might be undesirable, but only if you can use it to prove the OP_RETURN is there... 11:18 < sipa> you can trivially prove that the OP_RETURN is in the UTXO set by just giving the SPV proof of its inclusion 11:19 < sipa> as it's unspendable, if it is created at any point in time, it will forever be in the UTXO set 11:19 < bsm117532> That too. 11:19 < sipa> (also, I don't care about OP_RETURNs, i consider them abusive) 11:20 -!- Sprh [~Sprh@12.20.48.10] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:20 < bsm117532> But since your commitment is O(1), it could contain an arbitrary amount of unspendable junk and not bother anyone. 11:21 < sdaftuar> bsm117532: not if you want to use it! 11:21 < sdaftuar> ie if you want to give someone the utxo set and have them verify against the has, you need to keep the junk 11:21 < sdaftuar> hash* 11:22 < sdaftuar> so it's absolutely desirable to prune, as a practical matter. just philosophically a little ugly, i think 11:22 < sdaftuar> (ie, where do you draw the line) 11:23 < bsm117532> Yes, it depends on how this commitment gets used. 11:24 < sipa> AFAIK, it's only useful to compare UTXO sets :) 11:24 < bsm117532> sipa: There should be exactly one OP_RETURN in a block, preferably in the coinbase, preferably constructed from something like opentimestamps. 11:24 -!- DrNo [~DrNo@10.101.198.146.dyn.plus.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:24 < sipa> bsm117532: i wish opentimestamps supported sign-to-contract :) 11:24 -!- cluckj [~cluckj@pool-108-52-166-30.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:25 -!- cluckj [~cluckj@pool-108-52-166-30.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:25 -!- triazo [~adam@104.168.155.31] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:26 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:27 < gmaxwell> sipa: petertodd has a lame "but it's complicated" argument that basically amounts to getting people to write code that even verifies hashtree membership is super hard. It's true but if complicated is a bar no timestamp has any ground to stand on. 11:29 < sipa> gmaxwell: i'm aware 11:30 < sipa> i'm not arguing for it, just expressing my wish :) 11:34 < instagibbs> I'm afraid that's a bit of cloud-yelling while certain groups are doing an op_return per file being timestamped... 11:34 < instagibbs> (I do not disagree with s2c) 11:38 -!- jcluck is now known as cluckj 11:56 -!- dnaleor_ [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 11:56 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.59] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:07 < JackH> are there any code examples for CPFP anywhere? 12:07 < sipa> how do you mean? 12:07 < JackH> or how to construct it more specifically, as we are looking to implement CPFP features within our payment processing system in order to "help" low fee transactions 12:08 < sipa> all you need to do is create a transaction that spends an unconfirmed output to yourself with higher fee 12:08 < JackH> well we cant really ensure all transactions we process are going to clear within a day, so we might start running CPFP on some of them to push them through 12:09 < sipa> also, offtopic here 12:09 -!- dnaleor_ [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:09 -!- thrmo [~thrmo@unaffiliated/thrmo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:11 < andytoshi> sipa: gmaxwell: petertodd is going to add s2c support 12:11 < andytoshi> he asked me to please write a pure python function to do it tho so that he doesn't need a dep, and i've been procrastinating 12:13 < andytoshi> i recently saw him in person ready to forcefully argue for it, but he was already coming around on his own it seemed :) 12:14 < bsm117532> You guys have any links as to how s2c works? 12:17 < andytoshi> bsm117532: page 5 of https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/wizardry/mw-slides/2017-05-milan-meetup/slides.pdf is it ... there is also a bitcointalk post somewhere that references it 12:17 < andytoshi> but there's no dedicated write-up anywhere that i'm aware of 12:20 < andytoshi> the idea is that for any point P, the operation x -> `P + H(P||x)G` is a commitment operation ... in an ECDSA or schnorr signature, there are two points (the pubkey and "ephemeral key" which is made up per-signature) that you can do this operation with and still be able to produce a sig 12:29 < instagibbs> I assume the ephemeral key would then be in two parts, and signer would prove it knows the other half? 12:29 < andytoshi> that is how it works, yeah ... usually we use the word "nonce" instead of "ephemeral key", it's the same thing 12:30 < andytoshi> so a signature that signs its pubkey _is_ actually a PoK of the secret nonce, but this isn't usually something people observe 12:41 -!- LeMiner [LeMiner@unaffiliated/leminer] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:41 -!- packet [~packetsmu@96-66-250-198-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:42 -!- packet [~packetsmu@96-66-250-198-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:42 -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-944bc443.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:43 < JackH> so is this going to work in bitcoin? 12:43 < JackH> will it be a bip? 12:43 < andytoshi> s2c? yes, it works in bitcoin today 12:43 < andytoshi> no need for a bip, it's like a scriptless script, nobody needs to know that anyone else is doing it 12:44 < JackH> has anyone created any yet that is on the blockchain as an example? or wont it show? 12:45 -!- blackwraith [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:45 < andytoshi> it won't show, but if i had an example i would prove it to you 12:45 < andytoshi> would be able to prove it* 12:45 < JackH> sorry for asking a bit stupid, but in which cases can I use the feature? 12:46 < andytoshi> i'm working on something that can make such sigs at https://github.com/apoelstra/sighacker but the actual s2c stuff isn't there yet, i got distracted by some other crypto 12:46 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:46 < andytoshi> JackH: (a) timestamping, (b) anything where you want a signature to commit to something.... so for example your wallet might commit to its current state so that you have an untamperable audit log 12:46 -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-944bc443.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:48 < JackH> current state could be balance at time of stamping for example? 12:48 < andytoshi> more likely a merkle tree of everything it had done up to that point 12:49 < andytoshi> but you could also throw your balance and anything else into that tree 12:50 -!- vicenteH [~user@135.234.15.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:56 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:00 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:01 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Client Quit] 13:02 -!- mol [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:05 -!- moli_ [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:09 -!- itsme_ [~textual@85.203.22.19] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:09 -!- zakalwe [~cz@host86-185-170-98.range86-185.btcentralplus.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:25 -!- UnrealLife [~UnrealLif@93.169.56.169] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:25 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:30 -!- dnaleor_ [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:30 -!- moli_ [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:32 -!- mol [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:37 -!- UnrealLife [~UnrealLif@93.169.56.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:40 -!- mol [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:41 -!- moli_ [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:41 -!- MaxSan [~one@159.148.186.32] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:45 -!- MaxSan [~one@159.148.186.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:46 -!- itsme_ [~textual@85.203.22.19] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 13:51 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.43] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:15 -!- packet [~packetsmu@96-66-250-198-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:16 -!- packet [~packetsmu@96-66-250-198-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:21 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:22 -!- baffo32 [baffo32@gateway/shell/layerbnc/x-cviolhdqthsdepxh] has quit [Quit: LayerBNC - https://LayerBNC.org/] 14:36 -!- harrymm [~wayne@104.237.91.12] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:36 < andytoshi> JackH: so, take a look at the sig in tx ff1dca15029d1df57a601f180308bcb6b91f2e8e129668452eaf066cd0668fa6 14:37 < andytoshi> the sha256 hash of 'This is andytoshi on 2017-05-16 21:30 UTC' is b9a31511e818c559b94ca06aa75bdd2491155b27e8c616e778d2ed8c22ddd057 14:37 < andytoshi> and my original public nonce was 0308aec434612f56df3f02c4e678260424415882ebd3efc16d52e3f9c1e39afdb0 (you cannot know this unless i tell you) 14:38 < andytoshi> you can check that the R value in the signature is the x-coordinate of + sha256( || )*G 14:38 -!- deusexbeer [~deusexbee@093-092-179-139-dynamic-pool-adsl.wbt.ru] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:39 < JackH> hmm 14:41 < JackH> oh wow you just did this one 14:42 < andytoshi> yeah, one sec, i'm writing some sage code so you can see how to verify it 14:45 < JackH> but with this, we can share pretty much anything, based on a regular tx, wow 14:46 < andytoshi> well, commit to anything .. i did have to give you that extra data out of band 14:46 < sipa> not share, commit 14:46 < MaxSan> This is not right is it - https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/6bkbig/how_does_sw_make_it_harder_to_raise_block_size/dhnbe9a/ 14:47 < JackH> true, commit 14:47 < gmaxwell> MaxSan: no, it's not and I've corrected it at least six times on reddit. 14:48 < gmaxwell> MaxSan: it's wrong at a couple levels, but I'm really exausted about refuting the same misinformation over and over again. 14:48 < MaxSan> I need to start keeping links to responses 14:48 < JackH> gmaxwell, you can now commit the amounts of times you did it directly on the blockchain 14:48 < gmaxwell> lol 14:49 < gmaxwell> it's hard to find commnets on reddit. 14:49 < JackH> ah whats 2 years of responding to reddit nicks 14:51 < andytoshi> JackH: https://0bin.net/paste/0gZ0QUfQj1wWvNbe#o3zFDUx4nrxXgeZC9NGfAMADZsDkVhrE6qOjOwbqmWp here is some sage code, it will output a x-coordinate and you've gotta squint at the rawtx to find it 14:51 < andytoshi> that's as much UX work as i'm willing to do :P 14:56 < gmaxwell> fwiw the varrious python libraries for bitcoin txn parsing work from sage. 14:56 < Eliel_> Is the point of s2c that it removes the need for an OP_RETURN output? 14:56 < gmaxwell> Eliel_: yes. 14:56 < gmaxwell> we'll I don't know about "the point" but it does that. 14:56 < gmaxwell> and in doing so eliminates bloat and also makes the transactions much more indistinguishable from ordinary transactions. 14:57 < Eliel_> I am currently scratching my head about it and wondering if I really understood what it's for :) 14:57 < Eliel_> or if there's more potential hidden away that I can't quite perceive right now 14:57 < gmaxwell> well, as mentioned it makes them undetectable. So it helps protect against censorship. 14:57 < sipa> Eliel_: if your goal is publishing data, no, because you can't use s2c to publish anything 14:57 < andytoshi> any situation where OP_RETURN would be appropriate, s2c is (except for explicitly publishing data in a provable way) 14:58 < gmaxwell> but if your goal were publishing data op_return hardly does that in any case. 14:58 < gmaxwell> (because its so expensive and size constrained) 14:58 < sipa> Eliel_: if your goal is to commit/timestamp data, yes, s2c is better (undetectable and smaller on chain) 14:58 < andytoshi> in addition it lets you tag specific signatures, and therefore specific txes, with some metadata, in a provable way 14:58 < andytoshi> i have some vague ideas about using this in a wallet so i can have some assurance it has not been tampered with 14:59 -!- blackwraith [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:59 < gmaxwell> yea, one application we previously discussed at blockstream was having wallets use this to commit to their metadata.. in particular things like reference exchange rates. So later if you need to prove your accounting records to someone you can show that you weren't going back and cooking the books retroactively. 15:00 < andytoshi> ooo i'd never thought of that one 15:01 < kanzure> why not just timestamp your records as you go along? 15:01 < gmaxwell> thats what this would do. 15:01 < kanzure> also why is retroactive cooking a problem-- isn't the problem mostly inline book cooking up fraud the whole time with dynamic writing of like umpteen zillion different histories? 15:01 < JackH> cant this be used as a password? 15:01 < mryandao> what's s2c? 15:01 < kanzure> sign to contract 15:02 < JackH> if I have the R and use it to return the value, and if those two compute, I "log in" 15:02 < andytoshi> kanzure: so, if you are timestamping tx data with the actual transactions, you can't make parallel timestamps like that 15:02 < sipa> JackH: "use it to return the value" ? 15:02 < andytoshi> you also get a timestamp at "precisely the time the tx was created", which is more precise than ordinary timestamps (which are "about and around this clocktime") 15:02 < JackH> so this is saved on the blockchain, and in order for me to read it, I have R 15:03 < sipa> R is on the blockchain 15:03 < andytoshi> there are two Rs here 15:03 < kanzure> oh, timestamping next to actual wallet transaction. so this does not use calendar window aggregation magic. 15:03 < sipa> what you have is a proof that the R was computed using some particular data as entropy 15:03 < andytoshi> kanzure: right, though you could do that in parallel 15:03 < MaxSan> someone should respond to him. i cant form a response as well as you lot can. I need to make a coctail instead. 15:03 < sipa> meaning that that entropy existed at the time the transaction was created 15:04 < andytoshi> MaxSan: i might take a look at it, but generally reddit is a black hole when it comes to this sorta thing 15:04 < MaxSan> yeah it is 15:04 < MaxSan> its why I sort of hang out here but so many new folks come there 15:04 < MaxSan> and you have to kinda defend the fort =/ 15:06 < bsm117532> Super interesting. Does petertodd want to put the opentimestamps root in a transaction like this, so using no OP_RETURNS? 15:06 < bsm117532> And if you did, how would you find timestamped data? Or is the idea that there are many opentimestamps servers making their own timestamps? 15:07 < andytoshi> bsm117532: yes, at some point in the near future. and you find the data same as you do now 15:07 < sipa> bsm117532: you don't 'find' timestamped data, you get a proof 15:07 -!- kmels [~kmels@190.106.223.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:07 < bsm117532> Well sure, my question was more about the level of aggregation... 15:08 < andytoshi> bsm117532: https://www.wpsoftware.net/ots/view/9219919b6a05421158dbff2784f808a9587ff118a1077fc02f5aac85ede979d3 here is a timestamp proof for something that i happen to have a proof for (i've forgotton what it is :)) 15:08 < andytoshi> you can see that already with OP_RETURN the thing that lands in the blockchain is very far removed from the actual data 15:10 < gmaxwell> amusingly you could produce an exo-timestamper. E.g. whenever you transact you offer a timestamp server to timestamp for it. If you successfully return a useful proof to it.. it gives you tokens yous you can use to ask it to timestamp things later. :P 15:11 -!- UnrealLife [~UnrealLif@93.169.153.115] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:11 < gmaxwell> and the timestamp server itself never transacts, except if no one else does for a long time. 15:12 < bsm117532> gmaxwell: so every transaction could potentially have a timestamp (even someone elses!) 15:12 < gmaxwell> yes. in what I described it would usually be someone elses. 15:12 -!- JackH [~laptop@79-73-189-229.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:13 < bsm117532> The timestamp server would have to give you the timestamp root, then you sign, then the timestamp server verifies it and broadcasts it if it's correct? If it's not correct it just discards it and says "that transaction has no timestamp commitments". 15:14 -!- Cobra-Bitcoin [8a44f8f5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.138.68.248.245] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:16 < gmaxwell> bsm117532: yea, and it would just give many users the same stuff to timestamp and only clear its queue when it gets an acceptable one. 15:18 < Cobra-Bitcoin> Reddit is basically a misinformation producing machine 15:21 -!- jannes [~jannes@095-097-246-234.static.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:23 -!- UnrealLife1 [~UnrealLif@93.169.153.115] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:25 < gmaxwell> yea :( 15:26 < gmaxwell> when I was a we lad I thought the internet would free the minds of the world, but improved technology and power imbalances have made it the greatest coercion tool ever imagined, I fear. 15:26 -!- UnrealLife [~UnrealLif@93.169.153.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:28 < kanzure> wait was freeing minds the goal? 15:30 < Cobra-Bitcoin> I guess the internet was always supposed to be a place for the free exchange of information, but nobody said that that information had to be accurate, or reliable 15:30 < gmaxwell> technology doesn't have goals, it has implications. 15:31 < Cobra-Bitcoin> At some point, like with /r/btc, the lies become so great and enormous that nobody can even challenge them anymore effectively 15:31 < gmaxwell> As a young man I thought the implication of everyone inexpensively being able to reach everyone else would have one set of benefits, which is somewhat has... But the costs weren't what I imagined. 15:33 < kanzure> get better friends that don't spam you 15:34 < gmaxwell> The first sign of trouble that I really saw was in 1998 or so, when a woman I was dating decided that she was actually an elf, and created a mailing list which was full of other people that earnestly thought they were elves. And with 100 of these people constantly talking to each other they became all quite convinced that this was all totally normal. Fortuately their views were more or less harm 15:34 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:34 < gmaxwell> less, but they easily could have been otherwise. So even without funded commercial or state-actor manipulation and fancy influence tools, shills, and whatnot .. a group of people managed to self-affirm themselves into a really weird space. 15:35 -!- dclxvi [dclxvi@95-44-201-135-dynamic.agg1.whi.bdt-fng.eircom.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:35 < MaxSan> i feel ive jumped into something here again lol 15:35 < MaxSan> Where exactly do I find these elf girls? asking for a friend. 15:36 < gmaxwell> uh. lol. 15:36 < MaxSan> :P 15:36 < gmaxwell> I doubt their mailing list exists anymore. I could try to remember it. I don't talk to her anymore, though for reasons unrelated to deciding she was an elf. 15:37 < MaxSan> Only messin 15:37 < MaxSan> ..oO 15:37 < gmaxwell> but yea, pre-internet it was much harder to form a cult. 15:37 < MaxSan> But yeah self reinforcing views under closed walls is very easy to slip into 15:38 < MaxSan> Not always negative/positive but are what they are. I have went from place to place on the internet and met the same people in small unrelated communities. Great minds think alike? unlikely in our case lol 15:38 < gmaxwell> it's not just that though. _influence_ is unfortunately easy. Absent someone trying to manipulate it, it can fall into self-amplifying traps... 15:38 < MaxSan> The more complex a topic is like bitcoin though the more people need to look at others for direction 15:38 < Cobra-Bitcoin> The concept of a "social" or "mind" virus is interesting, like I've noticed the /r/btc folks repeat the exact same talking points, as if brainwashed or infected with a mind virus like something out of Ghost in the Shell 15:39 < gmaxwell> Cobra-Bitcoin: to be fair, a lot of them are actually the same people under different names. :) 15:39 < MaxSan> ding ding... 5 points lol 15:44 < gmaxwell> Cobra-Bitcoin: Ver told Shrem that ver was spending $500k/mo 'promoting BU' (shrem later apologized for publishing ver's private info... :P) consider the kind of influence that gives you on a largely open venue like reddit. 15:45 -!- vicenteH [~user@135.234.15.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:45 < Cobra-Bitcoin> He definitely has a shill army working his sub, after a while I see the same sets of usernames posting, the usual suspects, Adrian-X, Ant, increaseblocks, that Anna person, etc 15:46 < sipa> can we not turn this channel into #rant-about-reddit? 15:46 < gmaxwell> Esp if you've got these people cyborged up with tools like https://np.reddit.com/r/shills/comments/4wl19r/alleged_paid_shill_leaks_details_of_organization/?st=j2884gao&sh=8b40f558 15:47 < gmaxwell> sipa: sorry, wasn't even really trying to rant about reddit. 15:47 < gmaxwell> But rather the general problem with anonymous open communication channels that leave them super vulnerable to disruption. 15:47 < sipa> i'm aware, and i think it's fine 15:47 < gmaxwell> (including, FWIW, this channel.) 15:47 < sipa> but i'd also like to keep the bitcoin drama out of here 15:47 < gmaxwell> Fair enough. 15:48 < Cobra-Bitcoin> A technical question sipa, what's going to likely happen if segwit doesn't activate? 15:49 < sipa> Cobra-Bitcoin: i'd consider that a political question, but i'll bite: as long as there seems to be ecosystem support for it, i expect that a new deployment will be proposed 15:49 < sipa> as far as development is concerned, i consider segwit done 15:50 < gmaxwell> Cobra-Bitcoin: I've always just assumed that a new deployment would be proposed on the next available BIP9 bit, perhaps with the same or different activation criteria. The fail-to-active seems like it may be prudent based on feedback I've seen from users. 15:51 < gmaxwell> Cobra-Bitcoin: or I'd say that the default for _any_ bip9 thing is that it keeps getting redeployed so long as there is interest for it. And stops getting redeployed if interest moves elsewhere (e.g. if a better option comes along) 15:51 < gmaxwell> Cobra-Bitcoin: I think we'd probably already gear up for a redeploy but for segwit it's somewhat more complicated than most softforks because there are P2P interactions. 15:51 < gmaxwell> E.g. it would be simpler to only have one deployment window programed at a time in a given piece of software. 15:52 < Cobra-Bitcoin> I'd say the time for a hard fork is soon to be honest, a hard fork with segwit, and other fixes is needed 15:52 < Cobra-Bitcoin> Bitcoin is slowly becoming extremely hard to change, so good to do the hard fork in the next few years 15:52 < gmaxwell> Cobra-Bitcoin: well the BIP148 UASF is darn near exactly that. 15:53 < sipa> Cobra-Bitcoin: hmm, i disagree 15:53 < sipa> i don't think that fear of stagnation is a good reason for a hardfork 15:53 < gmaxwell> as far as other changes, I think it's preferable to seperate things. Bundling things which could be logically seperated is a little coersive (perhaps more than a little). For segwit we carefully cut it to a core set of things which all depend on each other. 15:54 < Cobra-Bitcoin> You can barely change the system as it is now, in 2-3 years, nobody will have any control whatsoever over Bitcoin 15:54 < sipa> Cobra-Bitcoin: sounds awesome 15:54 < gmaxwell> And stagnation would be very low on the list of risks that I'd account up for Bitcoin. 15:54 < sipa> if the ecosystem wants segwit, a user-triggered softfork seems the best way to proceed 15:55 < sipa> that does not require forking off those who aren't interested in it 15:56 < gmaxwell> Cobra-Bitcoin: The kind of stagnation where changes only happen where they are very widely supported, and still accomidate people that would prefer to ignore them is a pretty good outcome generally. That doesn't imply an inability to adopt useful changes. 15:56 < gmaxwell> we certantly don't want to end up like ethereum or ripple, which are more on the other end of the spectrum. :) 15:57 < sipa> Cobra-Bitcoin: my wish is that people wouldn't see one controversial change as blocking other improvements 15:57 < Cobra-Bitcoin> I'm talking about a situation where changes can't happen at all, even if they're good ideas and well supported, like with Segwit but much worse 15:57 < gmaxwell> Cobra-Bitcoin: back when hearn and gavin started yelling about wanting a hardfork I proposed we do something that just did a number of the really obvious technical cleanup changes (timewarp, header bit recovery, etc.) but sadly they were vigorously opposed because they wanted to damnd removal of the blocksize limiti in trade. 15:58 < gmaxwell> Cobra-Bitcoin: It's not clear to me if that outcome is really possible. Though the bar might move arbritarily high. 15:58 < gmaxwell> Cobra-Bitcoin: if it is possible, it would be fantastic news. Though I agree with your thinking that it would be regrettable if we didn't get in some of the known improvements. 15:59 < gmaxwell> But at the same time the set of improvements we know of today are going to be tiny compared to the ones we'll eventually find. 16:00 < Cobra-Bitcoin> Some improvements are better than nothing 16:00 < gmaxwell> maybe, though at what cost? 16:01 < sipa> Cobra-Bitcoin: why would changes stop happening at all? if it's just because miners don't want something, and others do, then the ecosystem can easily force miners 16:02 < gmaxwell> yea, miners really aren't much of a concern there. 16:02 < sipa> Cobra-Bitcoin: if it's due to a disagreement inside the users of the system, a split may happen 16:02 < sipa> i think that would be sad, but not terrible if done in a respectful way 16:02 < Cobra-Bitcoin> The ecosystem has shown that it won't do anything that has even the possibility of a split or ruining Bitcoin's brand 16:02 < sipa> and for good reason 16:02 < gmaxwell> and I think that segwit adoption has show that ecosystem can easily gather overwhelming support around a tech improvement. 16:03 < sipa> but at some point too much may become too much 16:03 < gmaxwell> The biggest complication there is that people have misrepresented BIP9 as a miner vote and managed to present miner votes as somehow a virtuious way of 'deciding' things. 16:04 < gmaxwell> Cobra-Bitcoin: I think you're perhaps being too anxious there. Bitcoin should exist and be heavily used for hundreds or thousands of years.... some months delay in an improvement will see like nothing. 16:04 < gmaxwell> (in hindsight) 16:05 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:05 < Cobra-Bitcoin> Bitcoin is in it's "early history" right now, so we should all be doing like Satoshi did and getting as much set in stone as possible before the system becomes too hard to be changed in 3-5 years 16:06 < sipa> i don't think "too hard to change" is necessarily an outcome 16:06 < sipa> too hard to hardfork perhaps 16:07 < gmaxwell> For even simple web technology like HTTP2 which has none of the complex consensus implications -- it's taken years to get it speced and deployed. 16:07 < sipa> disagreement about how to deal with this one aspect of scalability shouldn't hinder other improvements, and i hope that eventually we'll see that 16:09 < gmaxwell> 4 byte ASN numbers in BGP, -- again, BGP far less global consistency requirements than Bitcoin, but not none at all-- started their discussion in 2001, was finally standarized in 2007, and was first deployed on the internet in 2012 (and then promptly caused an internet wide partition due to corner case behavior making it not actually a soft-fork) :P 16:09 < gmaxwell> (this change was required for there to be more than ~65535 globally routable networks on the internet.) 16:10 -!- smk [4ad8c7ae@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.216.199.174] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:12 < Cobra-Bitcoin> Hopefully Core will be a bit more aggressive with the next Segwit deployment 16:13 < gmaxwell> Yea, probably: we know a lot more now than before. 16:14 < gmaxwell> One of the problems with softforks is that it's hard to gauge support in advance of launching them but you must program the software completely in advance. 16:14 < gmaxwell> We didn't know for sure that within a few months we'd have 90%+ nodes ready for it, for example... we could have guessed but it would have been a guess. 16:15 < Cobra-Bitcoin> It's amazing how many downloads Core binaries get... 16:15 < gmaxwell> We now have another year of testing and expirence, a deployment on litecoin, and overwhelming feedback from the user and business communities. 16:15 < gmaxwell> And we know that our lazy but safe triggering mechenism is getting gamed by a couple oversized miners. 16:17 < Cobra-Bitcoin> People are updating their nodes more often now, the current set of full node operators are a lot more engaged 16:22 -!- Cobra-Bitcoin [8a44f8f5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.138.68.248.245] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 16:26 < gmaxwell> Cobra-Bitcoin: hard to know in detail though.. e.g. if a bunch of those are just 'moral supporters' who only own a few bitcents and never transact, it might not mean as much as it seems. 16:26 < gmaxwell> oops 16:33 -!- kenshi84_ is now known as kenshi84 16:42 -!- epsi10n [~epsi10n@81.171.58.87] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:46 -!- epsi10n [~epsi10n@81.171.58.87] has 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