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03:45 < adlai> in joinmarket, waxwing and belcher and i each (independently iirc?) came up with extensions of this for proving null set intersection, although the naive version gets a little expensive
03:45 < adlai> s/in/for/, was just a discussion, not implemented yet.
03:46 < waxwing> adlai: kanzure i'm a bit confused about the above, i seem to remember kanzure mentioning before the idea of ordering being used for this, but what's described above ^ i couldn't parse exactly.
03:47 < adlai> kanzure: "some rule about how the merkle path is decided or how things are ordered" << how could these differ? the merkle path structure seems to me just another way of defining the ordering
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04:18 < nsh> adlai, any notes?
04:18 < nsh> oh, i lost some lines. *reads logs*
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05:37 < kanzure> waxwing: yes ordering is important.   IIRC most of the previous constructions were about inclusion proofs, not non-inclusion proofs.
05:38 < kanzure> adlai: i don't understand your question.
05:39 < waxwing> yes sure, non-set-membership is the hard one. we were looking at doing it based on ordering, but it's kinda bloaty. i seem to recall researching zero knowledge proof of non-set-membership and .. getting confused, as usual :)
05:41 < kanzure> how bloaty is bloaty?
05:42 < waxwing> yeah i forget the scaling
05:42 < kanzure> THANKS
05:43 < waxwing> hey, i'm going to try to look it up :)
05:44 < waxwing> i don't know if this represented the last steps of our thinking, we were discussing it a bit, but this was belcher's first steps at least: https://gist.github.com/chris-belcher/eb9abe417d74a7b5f20aabe6bff10de0
05:44 < waxwing> hmm my vague memory is that things progressed after that, i'll check the IRC logs
05:48 < kanzure> there we go, this is about right... "In this best case, only one branch and two leaf nodes must be revealed. In the worst case another branch of the tree must be revealed, revealing four leaf nodes. For proving 5 is not in the set:"
05:50 < waxwing> part of the issue is that we didn't actually need 'proof of non-set membership' so much as 'proof of null intersection of *two* sets' for our particular use case
05:52 < waxwing> i suspect when i said bloaty i was thinking of a later idea and confuddled them, the conversation was long and hasn't really finished anyway. so yes the 'bloaty' comment was not relevant, sorry.
05:52 < kanzure> well at minimum it looks like the worst case non-membership proof could require very large other chunks of the tree to be given
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06:02 < waxwing> kanzure: i think the worst case is only 2 full branches, so 2 x the best case of one branch. so i *think* it's still just O(logN) and not bad? not sure, not very used to this stuff.
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06:15 < waxwing> kanzure: https://github.com/proofchains/python-proofmarshal/blob/master/proofmarshal/merbinnertree.py
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06:17 < kanzure> oh i had forgotten that this implementation handles nonmembership proofs too :(
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06:19 < betawaffle> isn't this similar to what key transparency does to prove revocation?
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06:40 < instagibbs> very similar, if memory serves
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08:22 < betawaffle> does bitcoin ever do checkpoints? what would make a checkpoint any more problematic than trusting the genesis block?
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08:24 < betawaffle> or is the issue that you can't include the UTXO set state in the checkpoint?
08:24 < betawaffle> (so you'd still need old blocks)
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12:04 < kanzure> transcript of bramc's talk on merkle sets and txo commitments http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/sf-bitcoin-meetup/2017-07-08-bram-cohen-merkle-sets/
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12:27 < nsh> ty kanzure
12:28 < fluffypony> nsh: when are you getting yourself a telepresence robot?
12:34 < kanzure> it's me, i'm the telepresence robot.
12:35 < fluffypony> lol
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12:44 < nsh> aye, lacking money/time to create non-kanzurian implementation of telepresence
12:47 < kanzure> ~~cache coherence~~
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12:48 < fluffypony> http://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-telepresence-robot/
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14:11 < waxwing> kanzure: weirdly i was reading about ring signatures and stumbled onto this along the way by coincidence: https://users.dcc.uchile.cl/~pcamacho/papers/strongacc08.pdf
14:12 < kanzure> accumulator things http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/security/cryptography/accumulators/
14:15 < waxwing> ah yep. it's the fourth one of those :)
14:16 < kanzure> no i added it.
14:16 < kanzure> i'm just efficient.
14:17 < waxwing> heh. i'm new to this, seems the accumulator is partly what we were talking about, but with the additional thing of being able to update (add/delete)
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--- Log closed Sun Jul 23 00:00:57 2017