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onabreak [55e4c13c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.228.193.60] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:09 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:13 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:13 -!- GAit [~GAit@unaffiliated/gait] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1] 11:14 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:14 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-93-17-46-190.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:21 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:37 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:45 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cqabmmixmfzbkwww] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 11:46 -!- GAit [~GAit@unaffiliated/gait] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:01 -!- praxeology [~praxeolog@cpe-173-172-191-20.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:06 < ryan-c> Are spending transactions where the redeem script leaves values on the stack valid? 12:07 < sipa> that violates the CLEANSTACK rule (which is not consensus) 12:07 < sipa> inside P2WSH it is required 12:13 < stevenroose> sipa: what is the cleanstack rule exactly and how is it enforced? 12:13 < stevenroose> I thought a tx was valid if the end stack had a 1 and nothing more 12:14 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:19 < ryan-c> sipa: so the transaction would be valid, but you'd have to get a miner to include it manually? 12:19 < ryan-c> (in this case, the redeem script leaves 5 values on the stack) 12:20 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:21 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:22 -!- d9b4bef9 [~d9b4bef9@web501.webfaction.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:23 < ryan-c> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0062.mediawiki < Item 6 here? 12:23 -!- jtimon [~quassel@173.29.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:25 < sipa> ryan-c: yup 12:25 < sipa> stevenroose: the cleanstack rule is that there can only be exactly 1 item on the stack left after execution 12:25 < sipa> stevenroose: the reason is that you can otherwise just prepend extra pushes to a scriptSig 12:27 < ryan-c> stevenroose: the value on the stack does not need to be 1, just nonzero 12:32 < stevenroose> makes sense. thanks 12:40 < stevenroose> sipa: now that you're here: what's your position on a softfork to delay fee payout (can be as simple as 1 block) in order to mitigate fee manipulation attacks? 12:43 -!- airbreather [~airbreath@d149-67-99-43.nap.wideopenwest.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:43 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:45 -!- airbreather [~airbreath@d149-67-99-43.nap.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:45 -!- adiabat [~adiabat@45.63.20.152] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.4] 12:50 < sipa> stevenroose: how exactly would you do it? 12:50 < sipa> stevenroose: i'm in favor of pay-forward schemes where every block can only take a certain fraction of the fees paid by its transactions, and the rest goes to subsequent blocks 12:50 < sipa> from the viewpoint that as a tx creator you not only want to pay someone to include your transaction, but also want to incentivize others to build on top of it 12:51 < sipa> however, i don't think that fundamentally solves anything, just weakens the effects of fee rate variance in the mempool 12:51 < stevenroose> I didn't think too much about implementation details. I would think about enforcing that the fee part is spent to a special output that is only spendable in the coinbase of the next block 12:51 < stevenroose> but apparently (I asked some weeks ago) a coinbase cannot have a second input 12:51 < sipa> and also the outputs of a coinbase tx cannot be spent until 100 blocks later 12:52 < sipa> so you need a second 'special' transaction that does the fee forwarding 12:52 < stevenroose> ah that's an old consensus rule 12:52 < sipa> it would be much easier with a hardfork change that allowed coinbases to consume the outputs of other coinbases before maturity 12:52 < stevenroose> f.e. 12:53 < stevenroose> and that would allow coinbases to have multiple inputs 12:53 < stevenroose> yeah the 100 blocks rule is hard 12:53 -!- airbreather [~airbreath@d149-67-99-43.nap.wideopenwest.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:53 < stevenroose> what is the reasoning to split the fee reward in parts and give a part to the miner? 12:54 < stevenroose> how about require an anyone can spend output that has the fee 12:54 < stevenroose> so that basically the miner of block n+100 spends it 12:54 < stevenroose> would delay fees for 100 blocks, but in principle, 1 or 100 is the same 12:55 < stevenroose> a miner still has the same chance to find block n as block n+100 (even though his hashrate might vary) 12:55 < stevenroose> n+1 instead of n* 12:56 < sipa> if the feerate of mempool txn varies over time, you want to make sure that the fee income of miners stays relatively constant 12:57 < sipa> if there is high variance in payouts, you may incentivize miners to not build on top of another block, but instead fork of earlier 12:58 < stevenroose> hmm, you mean that miners will orphan empty blocks? 12:58 < stevenroose> or just the block with the lowest fee if two blocks arrive at approx the same time? 12:58 < stevenroose> that makes sense. that makes a lot more sense for n+1 as for n+100 12:59 < stevenroose> with n+1 you get the reward in the block you built on, that's never a good idea 12:59 < sipa> say there was 30 BTC worth of fees in the mempool, but in a small number of transactions 13:00 < sipa> the rest of the mempool is low feerate 13:00 < sipa> a miner creates a block A that contains all high fee txn, and as many low fee ones as possible 13:00 < sipa> it takes a reward of 42.5 BTC 13:01 < sipa> the next miner will not want to build on top of this block, as it only can take 12.5 + epsilon BTC 13:01 < sipa> so even if a miner only has a 12.5/42.5 chance of winning, he'll want to create an alternative A' that grabs the same 30 BTC of txn rather than building on top of A 13:02 < stevenroose> that is in the current case, right? 13:02 < sipa> yes 13:03 < sipa> but if you say *all* fees go to the next block rather than the current block, you haven't solved anything i think 13:03 < stevenroose> creating an alternative A' is tricky. I was thinking if two miners (accidentally or on purpose) build a block around the same time, with a delayed payout at n+1, all miners will build on the block with the highest fees 13:03 < gmaxwell> no one has found an incentive compatible solution to fee bypass that doesn't require things like the network specifying fee amounts (e.g. hardcoded economic paramter) 13:04 < sipa> and the lower the subsidy goes, the more that this becomes a problem... 13:04 < stevenroose> gmaxwell: what do you mean with fee bypass? 13:05 < stevenroose> if the fee payout is in the long future (n+100 f.e.), what are the incentives for picking a block to build on. you have very little knowledge about what your chances are to get block n+100 or n+101, except just average hashrate of the last some blocks 13:06 < stevenroose> incentives are more real with the current systme and with n+1 because you know what fee you will get based on the actions you take 13:06 < gmaxwell> stevenroose: users can always bypass the fee system and pay the miners directly, e.g. by paying to an address with a well known private key that miners can just sweep, or by writing transactions that pay to specific large miners. 13:07 < gmaxwell> stevenroose: if you are a miner and you can choose between two transactions one which pays 0.5 to you and another that pays 0.1 to you but 0.8 to a fee forward pool.. which will you choose? 13:07 < stevenroose> oh yeah, that one 13:07 < gmaxwell> you'll generally choose the one that pays more, so users can pay less in fees if they bypass and miners can make more. 13:08 < stevenroose> yeah that would be very bad for small miners 13:09 < gmaxwell> though sure, I agree miners should be able to pay forward, the obvious thing to do is to have a hardfork that lets coinbase txn spend other coinbase outputs without a maturity constraint... but its really unclear to me if any forwarding scheme can be constructed that doesn't just have an obvious equlibrium state of no one using the network built in fee mechenism to pay fees at all. 13:10 < stevenroose> true, forgot about that 13:10 < stevenroose> and a network-enforced fee schedule would be a mess 13:13 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:26 -!- MaxSan [~one@213.152.161.239] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:36 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:37 -!- eddiewan_ [~eddiewang@216.165.220.79] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:44 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:44 -!- eddiewan_ [~eddiewang@216.165.220.79] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:44 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:44 -!- eddiewan_ [~eddiewang@216.165.220.79] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:45 -!- eddiewan_ [~eddiewang@216.165.220.79] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:45 -!- eddiewan_ [~eddiewang@216.165.220.79] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:53 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@unaffiliated/belkaar] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:53 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@xdsl-78-35-55-97.netcologne.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:53 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@xdsl-78-35-55-97.netcologne.de] has quit [Changing host] 13:53 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@unaffiliated/belkaar] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:56 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:56 -!- onabreak_ [55e4c13c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.228.193.60] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:56 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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