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12:06 < ryan-c> Are spending transactions where the redeem script leaves values on the stack valid?
12:07 < sipa> that violates the CLEANSTACK rule (which is not consensus)
12:07 < sipa> inside P2WSH it is required
12:13 < stevenroose> sipa: what is the cleanstack rule exactly and how is it enforced?
12:13 < stevenroose> I thought a tx was valid if the end stack had a 1 and nothing more
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12:19 < ryan-c> sipa: so the transaction would be valid, but you'd have to get a miner to include it manually?
12:19 < ryan-c> (in this case, the redeem script leaves 5 values on the stack)
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12:23 < ryan-c> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0062.mediawiki < Item 6 here?
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12:25 < sipa> ryan-c: yup
12:25 < sipa> stevenroose: the cleanstack rule is that there can only be exactly 1 item on the stack left after execution
12:25 < sipa> stevenroose: the reason is that you can otherwise just prepend extra pushes to a scriptSig
12:27 < ryan-c> stevenroose: the value on the stack does not need to be 1, just nonzero
12:32 < stevenroose> makes sense. thanks
12:40 < stevenroose> sipa: now that you're here: what's your position on a softfork to delay fee payout (can be as simple as 1 block) in order to mitigate fee manipulation attacks?
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12:50 < sipa> stevenroose: how exactly would you do it?
12:50 < sipa> stevenroose: i'm in favor of pay-forward schemes where every block can only take a certain fraction of the fees paid by its transactions, and the rest goes to subsequent blocks
12:50 < sipa> from the viewpoint that as a tx creator you not only want to pay someone to include your transaction, but also want to incentivize others to build on top of it
12:51 < sipa> however, i don't think that fundamentally solves anything, just weakens the effects of fee rate variance in the mempool
12:51 < stevenroose> I didn't think too much about implementation details. I would think about enforcing that the fee part is spent to a special output that is only spendable in the coinbase of the next block
12:51 < stevenroose> but apparently (I asked some weeks ago) a coinbase cannot have a second input
12:51 < sipa> and also the outputs of a coinbase tx cannot be spent until 100 blocks later
12:52 < sipa> so you need a second 'special' transaction that does the fee forwarding
12:52 < stevenroose> ah that's an old consensus rule
12:52 < sipa> it would be much easier with a hardfork change that allowed coinbases to consume the outputs of other coinbases before maturity
12:52 < stevenroose> f.e.
12:53 < stevenroose> and that would allow coinbases to have multiple inputs
12:53 < stevenroose> yeah the 100 blocks rule is hard
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12:53 < stevenroose> what is the reasoning to split the fee reward in parts and give a part to the miner?
12:54 < stevenroose> how about require an anyone can spend output that has the fee
12:54 < stevenroose> so that basically the miner of block n+100 spends it
12:54 < stevenroose> would delay fees for 100 blocks, but in principle, 1 or 100 is the same
12:55 < stevenroose> a miner still has the same chance to find block n as block n+100 (even though his hashrate might vary)
12:55 < stevenroose> n+1 instead of n*
12:56 < sipa> if the feerate of mempool txn varies over time, you want to make sure that the fee income of miners stays relatively constant
12:57 < sipa> if there is high variance in payouts, you may incentivize miners to not build on top of another block, but instead fork of earlier
12:58 < stevenroose> hmm, you mean that miners will orphan empty blocks?
12:58 < stevenroose> or just the block with the lowest fee if two blocks arrive at approx the same time?
12:58 < stevenroose> that makes sense. that makes a lot more sense for n+1 as for n+100
12:59 < stevenroose> with n+1 you get the reward in the block you built on, that's never a good idea
12:59 < sipa> say there was 30 BTC worth of fees in the mempool, but in a small number of transactions
13:00 < sipa> the rest of the mempool is low feerate
13:00 < sipa> a miner creates a block A that contains all high fee txn, and as many low fee ones as possible
13:00 < sipa> it takes a reward of 42.5 BTC
13:01 < sipa> the next miner will not want to build on top of this block, as it only can take 12.5 + epsilon BTC
13:01 < sipa> so even if a miner only has a 12.5/42.5 chance of winning, he'll want to create an alternative A' that grabs the same 30 BTC of txn rather than building on top of A
13:02 < stevenroose> that is in the current case, right?
13:02 < sipa> yes
13:03 < sipa> but if you say *all* fees go to the next block rather than the current block, you haven't solved anything i think
13:03 < stevenroose> creating an alternative A' is tricky. I was thinking if two miners (accidentally or on purpose) build a block around the same time, with a delayed payout at n+1, all miners will build on the block with the highest fees
13:03 < gmaxwell> no one has found an incentive compatible solution to fee bypass that doesn't require things like the network specifying fee amounts (e.g. hardcoded economic paramter)
13:04 < sipa> and the lower the subsidy goes, the more that this becomes a problem...
13:04 < stevenroose> gmaxwell: what do you mean with fee bypass?
13:05 < stevenroose> if the fee payout is in the long future (n+100 f.e.), what are the incentives for picking a block to build on. you have very little knowledge about what your chances are to get block n+100 or n+101, except just average hashrate of the last some blocks
13:06 < stevenroose> incentives are more real with the current systme and with n+1 because you know what fee you will get based on the actions you take
13:06 < gmaxwell> stevenroose: users can always bypass the fee system and pay the miners directly, e.g. by paying to an address with a well known private key that miners can just sweep, or by writing transactions that pay to specific large miners.
13:07 < gmaxwell> stevenroose: if you are a miner and you can choose between two transactions one which pays 0.5 to you and another that pays 0.1 to you but 0.8 to a fee forward pool.. which will you choose?
13:07 < stevenroose> oh yeah, that one
13:07 < gmaxwell> you'll generally choose the one that pays more, so users can pay less in fees if they bypass and miners can make more.
13:08 < stevenroose> yeah that would be very bad for small miners
13:09 < gmaxwell> though sure, I agree miners should be able to pay forward, the obvious thing to do is to have a hardfork that lets coinbase txn spend other coinbase outputs without a maturity constraint... but its really unclear to me if any forwarding scheme can be constructed that doesn't just have an obvious equlibrium state of no one using the network built in fee mechenism to pay fees at all.
13:10 < stevenroose> true, forgot about that
13:10 < stevenroose> and a network-enforced fee schedule would be a mess
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--- Log closed Sun Aug 27 00:00:01 2017