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08:54 < JackH> https://prezi.com/view/4biN62sLkyS0w7muL2w4/ do we have the presentation somewhere for this one?
08:54 < JackH> I found it here: https://github.com/nopara73/ZeroLink/ but the way its done on the website is really nice
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09:21 < bsm117532> It's unclear to me whether there is an actual proposal there...but it's a nice review of mixing techniques.
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09:23 < waxwing> right; the presentation may not explicitly make a recommendation (haven't read it all yet but he's presenting it in paris this w/e), but i know nopara is working on a chaumian style coinjoin setup.
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09:23 < waxwing> well, iirc the github repo goes into that (it's a doc rather than code)
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09:25 < bsm117532> I gather.  Looking forward to the Paris presentations.
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09:34 < JackH> It does imply he is going to add multiple mixing techniques and add them together to form something new (a new BIP?)
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09:37 < JackH> I am personally looking forward to Dandelion, its straightforward and does something very important IMO
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09:43 < bsm117532> obref: https://github.com/gfanti/bips/blob/master/bip-dandelion.mediawiki
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10:15 < waxwing> https://github.com/mit-dci/tangled-curl/blob/master/vuln-iota.md honestly it could be considered offtopic, but it's quite something.
10:15 < waxwing> gist seems to be that they rolled their own hash function and it was not collision resistant.
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10:20 < waxwing> lol "We used the lyrics to the [80's hit single "push it to the limit"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarface_(Push_It_to_the_Limit) in the colliding messages to demonstrate that we fully collide the internal state of curl and thus giving us arbitrary control over most of the message."
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10:24 < bsm117532> Aaaaarrrggghhh I tried to warn people away from that joke project as it overlaps a lot with my braids research.
10:25 < bsm117532> I wish more people would try practical attacks against all these altcoins.
10:25 < sipa> proof-of-obfuscation
10:25 < bsm117532> "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" however when people don't see these things going down in flames, your average investor assumes the contrapositive and throws his money at it.
10:27 < bsm117532> Long story short: let's build something that's even MORE bandwidth intensive and storage intensive than bitcoin.  Let's introduce a new consensus algorithm involving a monte-carlo simulation (which is very CPU intensive).  Then, let's sell this as a solution for low-bandwidth, low-cpu IoT devices.
10:28 < waxwing> 'say hello to my little friend ... differential cryptanalysis!'
10:28 < bsm117532> If I could short these things, I'd place a bounty on many altcoins.  Especially the S2X altcoin.
10:29 < waxwing> wait - consensus using a monte carlo simulation?!
10:29 < bsm117532> waxwing: yes.  They use a directed acyclic graph instead of a chain, with an extremely arbitrary "scoring" assigned to parents.  Then they perform a MC simulation over the graph to decide the chain tip.
10:30 < bsm117532> It's very not-obvious to me that this converges, and I think both myself and Taek have come up with graph scenarios that would destroy it.
10:31 < waxwing> can't decide if meme: using ternary instead of binary, or using a MC-simulation for consensus.
10:31 < waxwing> well obviously the latter, the first one is just eccentric, the second one is galactic level craziness :)
10:33 < bsm117532> Hey if everyone is using the same random seed, they will all agree right?
10:34 < sipa> INB4: centralized broadcast of signed random seedsa
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10:34 < waxwing> sipa, there's that "a" again. be careful, you might trigger an event :)
10:35 < bsm117532> TYPO TRIGGERS CRYPTOCURRENCY CRASH!  NEWS AT 11.
10:35 < sipa> waxwing: i'm sure that's what lead to IoT being misinterpreted as IoTa
10:36 < bsm117532> If anyone wants the gory details or disagree with me: https://iota.org/IOTA_Whitepaper.pdf
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10:50 < Taek> I'm glad someone took the time to cryptoanalyze that hash function. Hopefully it serves as a good lesson to some that you shouldn't trust projects who are writing their own cryptography
10:51  * sipa hides in a corner
10:53 < kanzure> libsecp256k1's security argument was not "trust us"
10:54 < waxwing> ahem, "abstinence only cryptography" ;)
10:54 < waxwing> as usual soundbites don't catch it. here the issue is, i believe, how ludicrously hard it is to write a good cryptographic hash function.
10:55 < waxwing> well, from the above ^ i guess that's just one issue, but it's clearly the headline one.
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10:59 < sipa> waxwing: i believe it is easy to write a cryptographic hash function
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10:59 < sipa> i believe it is ludicrously hard to write one with competitive performance, though
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11:05 < waxwing> ok. that sounds reasonable. reminds me of a question that often floats through my brain, what exactly would you have to do to dl/ecdl scalar mult to make it fulfil reqmnts of a hash fn?
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11:06 < waxwing> i only know the requirements as (coll. res, first and second preimage res.; maybe that's not the correct full defn?)
11:06 < sipa> indistinguishability from a random function
11:06 < waxwing> well apart from trivial stuff like fixed length digest
11:06 < waxwing> right
11:06 < sipa> which implies all the other things you list, iirc
11:07 < sipa> there was a SHA3 proposal called ECOH, but it was very broken
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11:10 < bsm117532> sipa: your "rolling UTXO commitments" proposal turns a sha512 into a EC point, which I'd argue is a hash function.  waxwing does that satisfy your question?
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11:10 < sipa> bsm117532: it uses SHA512 however :)
11:10 < bsm117532> details...
11:10 < sipa> creating a hash function when you're allowed to use another hash function...
11:11  * bsm117532 thinks it's rather interesting to transform a hash output to an algebraic domain.
11:11 < bsm117532> Don't really care that the hash function is required.
11:12 < waxwing> so yeah that's interesting 'indistinguishable from random' is stronger than those mentioned properties. so i guess to use like ecc scalar  mult you first off have to decide how to preprocess arbitrary length data to a group element. is that an issue? no idea.
11:13 < sipa> something ECC + Elligator may work
11:13 < gmaxwell> Taek: thats bullshit abstence only cryptography.
11:13 < bsm117532> waxwing: that's exactly what sipa does with a sha512 output.
11:13 < gmaxwell> saying "writing their own cryptography" is not the same as saying "inventing your own hash function"
11:14 < sipa> or more generically, writing their own cryptography vs writing their own cryptography while consulting with experts in the field
11:14 < sipa> :)
11:14 < waxwing> gmaxwell, that's what i said. not so forcefully though, lol.
11:14 < waxwing> well, plus i was quoting you to begin with, heh.
11:15 < gmaxwell> Virtually nothing has been broken because someone implemented theiry own implementation of a standard algorithim, sometimes a sidechannel-- but the standard implementations you get elsewhere are very commonly sidechain vulnerable.
11:15 < waxwing> bsm117532, right, i see, just vaguely wondering whether the preprocessing itself is a problem theoretically. but meh, way out of my intellectual comfort zone there.
11:18 < waxwing> and yeah i was more wondering about how you make a hash function without a hash function :)
11:18 < Taek> I got too excited. Mostly I am railing against projects that invent cryptography and assert their usefulness before pursueing even remotely rigours analysis or arguments for security
11:18 < bsm117532> Taek: you should ICO that idea.
11:19 < waxwing> well don't feel so bad, tons of thought leaders on twitter are also saying that the lesson is 'don't roll your own crypto' :)
11:19 < kanzure> "thought leaders"?
11:19 < waxwing> lol. i'm trying to be polite here :)
11:19 < bsm117532> waxwing: The best way to invent a hash function is to use a hash function.  It's ludicrously hard.  Highly non-linear.
11:20 < waxwing> bsm117532, you caught me, i'm writing up iota2 now :)
11:20 < sipa> bsm117532: yes, hash functions that are too linear are easily breakdable :p
11:20 < gmaxwell> Taek: sure, but state it better.  The specific formulation you used gets used to argue against people implementing sha2 themselves or whatever, which is not a thing that should be argued against.
11:21 < waxwing> i've got it! the monte-carlo consensus algorithm *is itself* the hash function!!
11:28 < gmaxwell> (FWIW, I think the biggest problem with abstence only cryptography is that people think that if they use random crypto code they found on the internet they're good to go, and actually a lot of it is awful)
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13:46 < bsm117532> waxwing: *groan*
13:47 < bsm117532> MOAR RANDOM inputs = MOAR RANDOM.  In other news, I just rolled a die and got a 5.  You may now use 5  in your hash function.  It's provably random.
13:48 < bsm117532> I'll even send you the dice I used.
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13:59 < sipa> which always results in a 5? very random, wow
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14:11 < CryptAxe> I think your dice is using a bad entropy source
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14:42 < bsm117532> I rolled it once, it gave a 5.  It's super random.
14:42 < bsm117532> Best you can get.  Also, I'm going to ICO my dice.
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14:56 < sipa> bsm117532: it'd totally random, just not very uniformly
14:56 < bsm117532> sipa: stop it you hater.  I'm inserting 5 into my ICO's consensus protocol.  Prove me wrong.
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23:48 < kallewoof> A chain where the proof of work consists of rolling a die and getting the same dice as the entire chain from genesis to tip+1. Starting with 5.
23:49 < kallewoof> If PRNG a seed could be proof but alas.
--- Log closed Fri Sep 08 00:00:12 2017