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#bitcoin-wizards 09:03 -!- packetsmurf [~packet@96-66-250-198-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:04 < Chris_Stewart_5> Hi all, I wanted to draw attention to this email from ZmnSCPxj and solicit feedback about his scheme for committing sidechain headers in the bitcoin mainchain 09:04 < Chris_Stewart_5> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-September/014910.html 09:04 < Chris_Stewart_5> The key part: 09:04 < Chris_Stewart_5> " 09:04 < Chris_Stewart_5> The key insight is that the and are, in fact, the sidechain header. Concatenating those data and hashing them is the block header hash. Just as additional information (like extranonce and witness commitment) are put in the mainchain coinbase transaction, any additional information that the sidechain would have wanted to 09:04 < Chris_Stewart_5> put in its header can be committed to in the sidechain's equivalent of a coinbase transaction (i.e. a sidechain header transaction) 09:04 -!- ncl [~r@gateway/tor-sasl/ncl] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 09:04 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uoxdqmkqftmpedue] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:05 < Chris_Stewart_5> Is there any obvious ways this scheme is bad? 09:05 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:05 < Chris_Stewart_5> It seems to me this would be a plausible way to realize the sidechains white paper from 2014 09:05 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:07 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:08 -!- coinsmurf 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quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 11:09 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.171] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:10 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:10 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.171] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 11:12 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.171] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:12 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.171] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 11:14 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.171] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:14 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.171] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 11:16 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.171] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:16 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.171] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 11:17 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.171] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:17 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.171] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 11:18 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:22 -!- LeMiner [LeMiner@unaffiliated/leminer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:23 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:24 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.171] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:24 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.171] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 11:33 < arubi> anybody had the chance to look at jl2012's post at https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-September/014963.html ? specifically I'm interested in bip-YYY, and more specifically if the sighash scheme still always includes the pubkey used in the checksig operation. 11:34 < arubi> in the previous bip114 client (one based on v0.13.1), the pubkey was always part of the midstate, https://github.com/jl2012/bitcoin/blob/mast_v3_master/src/script/interpreter.cpp#L1820 (at least I couldn't get it to go away even with the NONE equiv). Seems like this restriction is gone in the current 'vault' branch, unless I missed something. 11:35 < jl2012> arubi: yes, I think sipa suggests to make the pubkey part of the signature scheme 11:35 < arubi> oh so is that going back in then? 11:36 < jl2012> so even if the message, ie. SignatureHash(), does not include the pubkey, it will be included by the signature scheme 11:36 < arubi> yea, that makes perfect sense 11:36 < sipa> yes, that's the correct way to do it 11:37 < arubi> but also opens up some cool things if not used :), along with the ability to sign scripts in inputs, new opcodes.. 11:37 < sipa> if you don't commit to the public key in the hash (directly or indirectly) you get some unexpected vulnerabilities 11:37 < gmaxwell> The pubkey needs to be part of the signature somehow, or the signature is not a proof of knoweldge and surprising stupidity gets opened up from being able to do pubkey recovery to 'sign' with a key you don't know the DL of. 11:38 < arubi> oh I didn't know about vulnerabilities 11:38 < arubi> sure sure 11:38 < arubi> but what if I want a 2-of-2 where one pubkey is committed to and the second isn't? 11:38 -!- rmwb [~rmwb@2001:df0:ce:1601:2817:3c1e:d8aa:a492] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:38 < sipa> why would you want that? 11:39 < gmaxwell> not even clear to me what that means. 11:40 < arubi> I mean like having a sighash version where committing to the pubkey is optional. the sighash byte is what determines the sighash scheme being used. 11:41 < sipa> again: why would you want that? 11:41 < sipa> flexibility in itself doesn't achieve any goal 11:41 < arubi> so say I have a 2-of-2 where one is a pubkey and the second is a signature's r value for example, then I append a yet undetermined s value and the special sighash byte, I have to come up with a pubkey that makes this signature valid 11:42 < gmaxwell> then you haven't signed anything at all, because there is always a 'pubkey' that makes it valuable. 11:42 < arubi> this pubkey is undetermined yet, it's only determined at the time when an s value is appended to the r value. I can do this only if I have a sighash scheme that doesn't require signing the pubkey too 11:42 < gmaxwell> er valid. 11:43 < arubi> yea but if I get to sign 's' as part of the input scripts.. 11:43 < sipa> arubi: then how can you have a 2-of-2 to it? 11:43 < sipa> if you don't know the pubkeys in advance 11:43 -!- abpa [~abpa@96-82-80-28-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:43 < arubi> there is only one s to be valid (sign using the first committed pubkey) 11:43 < arubi> the second pubkey in the 2-of-2 is just the r value, like gmaxwell said there's always a pubkey for it 11:43 < gmaxwell> arubi: you can't do that either, because there is always a solution and no private keys are needed to generate it. 11:44 < gmaxwell> you can't fix r,s in the spk and then choose PK later to sign. 11:44 < arubi> it's important that this will be a solution I accept 11:44 < arubi> I can sign the s with the first key going in as input, and r is already in the scriptpubkey 11:45 < arubi> I will pay to the pubkey in the input used by the 's' value that I signed to generate it 11:45 < gmaxwell> that isn't secure. because _anyone_ can compute the respective pubkey for any message. 11:46 < gmaxwell> arubi: you aren't craigh wright by any chance, are you? :P 11:46 < arubi> /busted 11:46 < gmaxwell> (he was on a stage a while back telling people malleability was a non issue because you could 'reverse' the math and gave a highly confused description of a similar totally insecure scheme) 11:47 -!- RubenSomsen [~RubenSoms@1.217.138.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:47 < arubi> yea I have a post on rbtc where I debunk it :) 11:47 < arubi> finding* 11:48 < gmaxwell> oh darn, I was kinda hoping he'd release some software that did it and we could have fun showing it was insecure. :) 11:48 < arubi> I think that's what you ean https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/687pos/how_can_i_verify_via_api_that_a_tx_is_confirmed/dgwnvpk/ 11:48 < gmaxwell> wrong link? 11:49 < arubi> yea.. weird. I clicked the permalink 11:49 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:50 < arubi> there https://redd.it/69i22t 11:50 < gmaxwell> interesting he also made the same claim in his future of bitcoin (vomit) talk 11:52 < arubi> I can see how he dissuades folks with his talks, it's just on the verge of being too easy to get lost in jargon and too hard to follow to disguise the nonsense 11:52 < gmaxwell> right, adding to your message, even if you could do it-- it wouldn't be secure. Anyone could steal the coins because anyone could compute the corresponding pubkey. 11:52 < arubi> yea I agree, if it's just one pubkey used in the script 11:52 < gmaxwell> yes, then he doubles down on the agressiveness and people back off because maybe he could be right. 11:52 < arubi> rather, just one signature 11:53 -!- packetsmurf [~packet@96-66-250-198-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:53 -!- coinsmurf [~packet@96-66-250-198-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:53 < arubi> with current script, it's easy to also do a 2-of-2 with one pubkey and one signature, but anyone could compute the pubkey like you say 11:54 < arubi> in case there's only an 's' value in there, or an 'r' value (can't decide which is better), and I get opcodes like substr and cat, I can generate the signature on the fly at redemption 11:54 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:54 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:55 < arubi> also since I can sign inputs now, I can have the first pubkey commit to the 's' or 'r' value in the inputs. changing it will invalidate the multisig 11:56 < arubi> it makes for some cool toys at least. I don't see how it becomes insecure here if I have the first pubkey as the inputs signer still. I'm moving my setup to the new 'vault' client to check that :) 11:57 < gmaxwell> Sorry, I am unable to parse what you are saying. 11:57 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.4] 11:58 < arubi> okay, lemme rephrase 11:58 < gmaxwell> might be more useful in a form of "'pubkey' is X" "signer provides Y" "verifier computes Z" 11:59 < arubi> this is very close to what I wrote in an old note, before I left it (as pubkey was in sighash) 12:00 < arubi> there's one cool operation in ecdsa called " Verifiable and Assisted Key Pair Generation and Validation" 12:00 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:00 < arubi> where you have one person produce a pubkey for your signature in a backwards way like I mean here 12:00 -!- coinsmurf [~packet@96-66-250-198-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:01 < arubi> pubkey is determined by the message, private key for the pubkey is recoverable by knowledge of DL of the signature's r value 12:02 -!- packetsmurf [~packet@96-66-250-198-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:02 < arubi> so what I was trying to do with ^^^ is something like that only where one signer provides the r value, and the second side provides the s 12:03 < jl2012> gmaxwell, arubi: like this one https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8927/files 12:04 < arubi> yea so there's a perfectly good way for a signature to sign itself if the pubkey isn't committed to 12:04 < gmaxwell> arubi: if r,s are commited someone can compute P for _any_ message without knowing k. 12:04 < arubi> that's where I started jl2012 :) 12:04 < gmaxwell> (Assuming the public key is not commited) 12:04 < arubi> but not P's DL! 12:05 < gmaxwell> 11:58:24 < gmaxwell> might be more useful in a form of "'pubkey' is X" "signer provides Y" "verifier computes Z" 12:05 < arubi> I'm still looking for the note :), it had some actual way of describing what I thought I was trying to do 12:05 -!- Aaronvan_ [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:06 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:07 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:11 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:13 < arubi> I can't find it. I guess it was so convoluted I never saved it :) so I'll go on with migrating to 'vault', see what's possible. 12:13 -!- Aaronva__ [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:13 -!- Aaronvan_ [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:14 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:16 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:17 -!- daszorz [~daszorz@cpc106809-live29-2-0-cust896.17-2.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:22 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:26 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Client Quit] 12:26 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:33 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:33 -!- dnaleor 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joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:05 -!- dabura667_ [~dabura667@p98110-ipngnfx01marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:06 -!- dabura667 [~dabura667@p98110-ipngnfx01marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:28 -!- rmwb [~rmwb@129.180.75.159] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:28 -!- rmwb [~rmwb@199.178.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:33 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:43 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:46 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:49 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:51 -!- coinsmurf [~packet@96-66-250-198-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:52 -!- packetsmurf [~packet@96-66-250-198-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:53 -!- packetsmurf [~packet@96-66-250-198-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:56 -!- coinsmurf [~packet@96-66-250-198-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:03 -!- momentropist [~momentrop@c-73-70-82-29.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:04 -!- momentropist [~momentrop@c-73-70-82-29.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:09 -!- jtimon [~quassel@199.31.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:17 < jl2012> gmaxwell: in this paper https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2F978-3-540-72540-4_13.pdf it says signing a message is just a proof of procession, but not proof of knowledge. What is the difference? 20:18 < jl2012> and it says proof of possession is not enough to make multisig safe. See the last paragraph of p.229 20:23 < luke-jr> Bitcoin signed messages are not a proof of ownership either, note. 20:23 < luke-jr> nor possession even 20:25 < sipa> luke-jr: it's about knowledge/posession of a private key 20:25 < sipa> not of money 20:26 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 20:31 < luke-jr> sipa: but it doesn't show that either, since the holder of the key is expected to sign such messages for non-holders of the key/money 20:32 < sipa> luke-jr: it's cryptographtly jargon 20:33 < sipa> doesn't have anything to do with social expectations, or even bitcoin 20:34 < luke-jr> i c 20:36 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-204-28-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:54 -!- Alina-malina [~Alina-mal@37.157.223.81] has quit [Changing host] 20:54 -!- Alina-malina [~Alina-mal@unaffiliated/alina-malina] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:00 -!- legogris [~legogris@128.199.205.238] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:00 -!- legogris [~legogris@128.199.205.238] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:29 -!- coinsmurf [~packet@96-66-250-198-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:30 -!- packetsmurf [~packet@96-66-250-198-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:36 -!- harrymm [~wayne@85.203.47.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:56 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:56 -!- [7] [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:07 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:08 -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dbcmekiibeahdium] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 22:10 -!- Murch [~murch@c-73-223-113-121.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:18 -!- coup_de_shitlord [~coup_de_s@2604:a880:1:20::8b:6001] has quit [Quit: Like 3 fire emojis lit rn 🔥🔥🔥] 22:20 -!- coup_de_shitlord [~coup_de_s@2604:a880:1:20::8b:6001] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:29 -!- RubenSomsen [~RubenSoms@1.217.138.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:34 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-eymzzvwlnncbxacb] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:42 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@unaffiliated/belkaar] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:43 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@xdsl-85-197-56-176.netcologne.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:43 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@xdsl-85-197-56-176.netcologne.de] has quit [Changing host] 22:43 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@unaffiliated/belkaar] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:59 -!- Murch [~murch@c-73-223-113-121.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Snoozing.] 23:08 -!- Aranjedeath [~Aranjedea@unaffiliated/aranjedeath] has quit [Quit: Three sheets to the wind] 23:25 -!- momentropist [~momentrop@c-73-70-82-29.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:27 -!- momentropist [~momentrop@c-73-70-82-29.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:55 -!- DrOlmer [~DrOlmer@unaffiliated/drolmer] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:56 -!- rmwb [~rmwb@199.178.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:56 -!- DrOlmer [~DrOlmer@unaffiliated/drolmer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards --- Log closed Fri Sep 15 00:00:18 2017