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09:04 < Chris_Stewart_5> Hi all, I wanted to draw attention to this email from ZmnSCPxj and solicit feedback about his scheme for committing sidechain headers in the bitcoin mainchain
09:04 < Chris_Stewart_5> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-September/014910.html
09:04 < Chris_Stewart_5> The key part:
09:04 < Chris_Stewart_5> "
09:04 < Chris_Stewart_5> The key insight is that the <Previous Sidechain Block Header Hash> and <Current Sidechain Block Merkle Tree> are, in fact, the sidechain header.  Concatenating those data and hashing them is the block header hash.  Just as additional information (like extranonce and witness commitment) are put in the mainchain coinbase transaction, any additional information that the sidechain would have wanted to
09:04 < Chris_Stewart_5> put in its header can be committed to in the sidechain's equivalent of a coinbase transaction (i.e. a sidechain header transaction)
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09:05 < Chris_Stewart_5> Is there any obvious ways this scheme is bad?
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09:05 < Chris_Stewart_5> It seems to me this would be a plausible way to realize the sidechains white paper from 2014
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11:33 < arubi> anybody had the chance to look at jl2012's post at https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-September/014963.html ?  specifically I'm interested in bip-YYY, and more specifically if the sighash scheme still always includes the pubkey used in the checksig operation.
11:34 < arubi> in the previous bip114 client (one based on v0.13.1), the pubkey was always part of the midstate, https://github.com/jl2012/bitcoin/blob/mast_v3_master/src/script/interpreter.cpp#L1820  (at least I couldn't get it to go away even with the NONE equiv).  Seems like this restriction is gone in the current 'vault' branch, unless I missed something.
11:35 < jl2012> arubi: yes, I think sipa suggests to make the pubkey part of the signature scheme
11:35 < arubi> oh so is that going back in then?
11:36 < jl2012> so even if the message, ie. SignatureHash(), does not include the pubkey, it will be included by the signature scheme
11:36 < arubi> yea, that makes perfect sense
11:36 < sipa> yes, that's the correct way to do it
11:37 < arubi> but also opens up some cool things if not used :), along with the ability to sign scripts in inputs, new opcodes..
11:37 < sipa> if you don't commit to the public key in the hash (directly or indirectly) you get some unexpected vulnerabilities
11:37 < gmaxwell> The pubkey needs to be part of the signature somehow, or the signature is not a proof of knoweldge and surprising stupidity gets opened up from being able to do pubkey recovery to 'sign' with a key you don't know the DL of.
11:38 < arubi> oh I didn't know about vulnerabilities
11:38 < arubi> sure sure
11:38 < arubi> but what if I want a 2-of-2 where one pubkey is committed to and the second isn't?
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11:38 < sipa> why would you want that?
11:39 < gmaxwell> not even clear to me what that means.
11:40 < arubi> I mean like having a sighash version where committing to the pubkey is optional.  the sighash byte is what determines the sighash scheme being used.
11:41 < sipa> again: why would you want that?
11:41 < sipa> flexibility in itself doesn't achieve any goal
11:41 < arubi> so say I have a 2-of-2 where one is a pubkey and the second is a signature's r value for example, then I append a yet undetermined s value and the special sighash byte, I have to come up with a pubkey that makes this signature valid
11:42 < gmaxwell> then you haven't signed anything at all, because there is always a 'pubkey' that makes it valuable.
11:42 < arubi> this pubkey is undetermined yet, it's only determined at the time when an s value is appended to the r value.  I can do this only if I have a sighash scheme that doesn't require signing the pubkey too
11:42 < gmaxwell> er valid.
11:43 < arubi> yea but if I get to sign 's' as part of the input scripts..
11:43 < sipa> arubi: then how can you have a 2-of-2 to it?
11:43 < sipa> if you don't know the pubkeys in advance
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11:43 < arubi> there is only one s to be valid (sign using the first committed pubkey)
11:43 < arubi> the second pubkey in the 2-of-2 is just the r value, like gmaxwell said there's always a pubkey for it
11:43 < gmaxwell> arubi: you can't do that either, because there is always a solution and no private keys are needed to generate it.
11:44 < gmaxwell> you can't fix r,s in the spk and then choose PK later to sign.
11:44 < arubi> it's important that this will be a solution I accept
11:44 < arubi> I can sign the s with the first key going in as input, and r is already in the scriptpubkey
11:45 < arubi> I will pay to the pubkey in the input used by the 's' value that I signed to generate it
11:45 < gmaxwell> that isn't secure. because _anyone_ can compute the respective pubkey for any message.
11:46 < gmaxwell> arubi: you aren't craigh wright by any chance, are you? :P
11:46 < arubi> /busted
11:46 < gmaxwell> (he was on a stage a while back telling people malleability was a non issue because you could 'reverse' the math and gave a highly confused description of a similar totally insecure scheme)
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11:47 < arubi> yea I have a post on rbtc where I debunk it :)
11:47 < arubi> finding*
11:48 < gmaxwell> oh darn, I was kinda hoping he'd release some software that did it and we could have fun showing it was insecure. :)
11:48 < arubi> I think that's what you ean https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/687pos/how_can_i_verify_via_api_that_a_tx_is_confirmed/dgwnvpk/
11:48 < gmaxwell> wrong link?
11:49 < arubi> yea.. weird.  I clicked the permalink
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11:50 < arubi> there https://redd.it/69i22t
11:50 < gmaxwell> interesting he also made the same claim in his future of bitcoin (vomit) talk
11:52 < arubi> I can see how he dissuades folks with his talks, it's just on the verge of being too easy to get lost in jargon and too hard to follow to disguise the nonsense
11:52 < gmaxwell> right, adding to your message, even if you could do it-- it wouldn't be secure. Anyone could steal the coins because anyone could compute the corresponding pubkey.
11:52 < arubi> yea I agree, if it's just one pubkey used in the script
11:52 < gmaxwell> yes, then he doubles down on the agressiveness and people back off because maybe he could be right.
11:52 < arubi> rather, just one signature
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11:53 < arubi> with current script, it's easy to also do a 2-of-2 with one pubkey and one signature, but anyone could compute the pubkey like you say
11:54 < arubi> in case there's only an 's' value in there, or an 'r' value (can't decide which is better), and I get opcodes like substr and cat, I can generate the signature on the fly at redemption
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11:55 < arubi> also since I can sign inputs now, I can have the first pubkey commit to the 's' or 'r' value in the inputs.  changing it will invalidate the multisig
11:56 < arubi> it makes for some cool toys at least.  I don't see how it becomes insecure here if I have the first pubkey as the inputs signer still.  I'm moving my setup to the new 'vault' client to check that :)
11:57 < gmaxwell> Sorry, I am unable to parse what you are saying.
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11:58 < arubi> okay, lemme rephrase
11:58 < gmaxwell> might be more useful in a form of "'pubkey' is X"  "signer provides Y"  "verifier computes Z"
11:59 < arubi> this is very close to what I wrote in an old note, before I left it (as pubkey was in sighash)
12:00 < arubi> there's one cool operation in ecdsa called " Verifiable and Assisted Key Pair Generation and Validation"
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12:00 < arubi> where you have one person produce a pubkey for your signature in a backwards way like I mean here
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12:01 < arubi> pubkey is determined by the message, private key for the pubkey is recoverable by knowledge of DL of the signature's r value
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12:02 < arubi> so what I was trying to do with ^^^ is something like that only where one signer provides the r value, and the second side provides the s
12:03 < jl2012> gmaxwell, arubi: like this one https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8927/files
12:04 < arubi> yea so there's a perfectly good way for a signature to sign itself if the pubkey isn't committed to
12:04 < gmaxwell> arubi: if r,s are commited someone can compute P for _any_ message without knowing k.
12:04 < arubi> that's where I started jl2012 :)
12:04 < gmaxwell> (Assuming the public key is not commited)
12:04 < arubi> but not P's DL!
12:05 < gmaxwell> 11:58:24 < gmaxwell> might be more useful in a form of "'pubkey' is X"  "signer provides Y"  "verifier computes Z"
12:05 < arubi> I'm still looking for the note :), it had some actual way of describing what I thought I was trying to do
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12:13 < arubi> I can't find it.  I guess it was so convoluted I never saved it :)  so I'll go on with migrating to 'vault', see what's possible.
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20:17 < jl2012> gmaxwell: in this paper https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2F978-3-540-72540-4_13.pdf it says signing a message is just a proof of procession, but not proof of knowledge. What is the difference?
20:18 < jl2012> and it says proof of possession is not enough to make multisig safe. See the last paragraph of p.229
20:23 < luke-jr> Bitcoin signed messages are not a proof of ownership either, note.
20:23 < luke-jr> nor possession even
20:25 < sipa> luke-jr: it's about knowledge/posession of a private key
20:25 < sipa> not of money
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20:31 < luke-jr> sipa: but it doesn't show that either, since the holder of the key is expected to sign such messages for non-holders of the key/money
20:32 < sipa> luke-jr: it's cryptographtly jargon
20:33 < sipa> doesn't have anything to do with social expectations, or even bitcoin
20:34 < luke-jr> i c
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