--- Log opened Mon Oct 23 00:00:23 2017
--- Day changed Mon Oct 23 2017
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20:47 < rusty> kanzure: is there a common name for the idea of assisted validation, where the spending wallet attaches some proof of the outputs being spent ?  ISTR encountering this idea years ago with petertodd's name attached to it....
20:48 < kanzure> linearization possibly
20:48 < kanzure> client-side validation
20:50 < kanzure> rusty: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/milan/client-side-validation/ https://scalingbitcoin.org/milan2016/presentations/D2%20-%20A%20-%20Peter%20Todd.pdf
20:50 < rusty> kanzure: yep, thanks, CSV it is.  Hmm, acronym overload...
20:51 < kanzure> well don't use acronyms
20:51 < kanzure> that's your first problem
20:51 < rusty> DUA.  Got it!
20:51 < kanzure> i do not like calling this "assisted validation". maybe "client-side validation" or "wallet proofs" or "wallet-provided proofs" or something.
20:54 < kanzure> essentially the concept is to get massive scale in exchange for massive client/wallet burdens
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22:04 < geezas> Would anyone care to opine or at least entertain an idea of adding multiple PoWs? Removing a PoW (in the case of PoW change) is very disruptive, to say the least, but how about introducing an additional one? Any merit?
22:05 < geezas> Btw, If this is a wrong sub, my bad, advise me on which other one would be more appropriate.
22:05 < geezas> Was this ever considered at any length?
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22:37 < sipa> geezas: on topic, i'd sa
22:38 < sipa> but every scheme i know of to add PoW functions to a chain effectively need the whole network to adopt it first
22:39 < sipa> while it does not necessarily change the validity of any block (so it could be a softfork by that definition), it does change how tondetermine which bloxk is "best" among a number of candidates
22:40 < sipa> and that really means everyone needs to first adopt new software in order to not end up with 2 chains, i.e. a hardfork
22:40 < geezas> I agree, this is with the assumption there's a strong concensus and planned in advance so it's a safe hard-fork
22:41 < sipa> if those are your assumptions, how is it better than just changing PoW?
22:41 < geezas> well removing a PoW seems a lot more disruptive, it removes existing mining infrastructure
22:42 < geezas> each PoW would have its own difficulty adjustment in one form or another
22:43 < geezas> maybe naively, but I imagine new PoW would go through a similar steady increase to "maturity" as the original PoW did
22:44 < geezas> i guess in the end, if PoWs would compete freely, ultimately the one with best BTC/energy ratio would remain the only significant one
22:45 < geezas> but... with independent difficulty adjustments, it seems PoWs might actually converge on a very similar BTC/energy ratio
22:45 < geezas> and if there aren't too many downsides, it appears that it should help with decentralization
22:46 < geezas> maybe not permanently, but for a worthwile amount of time - thinking maybe at least several years
22:48 < geezas> the "dance" between fluctuations would keep the mining industry a bit more speculative, there'd be more "betting" on investing in one PoW vs the other
22:48 < geezas> it would be harder to centralize such a market, imp
22:48 < geezas> imp -> imo
22:55 < jb55> guys I got one. proof of kolmogorov. the shortest program to compute a challenge string. this would inventivize compression/ai algorithm development and eventually give rise to the singularity.
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22:56 < jb55> need you wizards to work out the remaining details
22:56 < eck> for my solution, i choose the programming language where the empty string is defined to be a program producing the challenge output string
22:59 < jb55> eck: stop cheating
23:02 < geezas> and each node would have to compile and run programs to validate? ha
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23:03 < jb55> was thinking people could broadcast candidates in each round and then the best one wins
23:03 < jb55> just not sure how you would choose the challenge string
23:04 < jb55> *best* being the smallest program that produces the output of course
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23:08 < jb55> the best miners would develop AIs that are good at writing code? as long as the challenges are interesting enough.
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23:12 < geezas> are you expanding on the joke or serious? maybe my sarcasm radar is not that great (mainly due to Poe's law)
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23:14 < jb55> both?
23:17 < geezas> I mean, you'd want to minimize complexity and attack surface when introducing a new PoW, as just the fact of introducing it is already adding complexity overhead
23:18 < sipa> i still don't see what you're trying to solve
23:18 < sipa> in ths long term, every PoW is equivalent: a conversion between electricity and hashrate
23:19 < sipa> in the short term, availability and research costs of hardware may favor some parties over others, through access to technology and manufacturing
23:19 < sipa> if that is a problem, giving more options isn't going to help - removing the option that hurts is
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23:24 < geezas> re: "favor some parties over others" right, there isn't an optimal solution with maximum decentralization, but wouldn't that still increase it (short term?) Some of those parties might be new parties. More parties in the system would be good.
23:25 < geezas> re: "removing the option that hurts is", I agree, but if we were to phase in new ones and phase out the ones that hurt be a smoother transition?
23:25 < jb55> would be a hairy change when cheap consumer asics does the same thing without any changes
23:26 < jb55> if that ever happens...
23:26 < geezas> the nature of ASICs is that it's not general purpose
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23:26 < geezas> you will never have general purpose ASICs for PoWs - general purpose ASIC is a CPU
23:26 < geezas> ...and a GPU to a lesser extent
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23:27 < sipa> geezas: it's a hardfork, it can't be smooth
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23:28 < geezas> I thought consensus hardforks can be smooth(er)
23:28 < sipa> if planned years in advance, sure
23:28 < geezas> add a hardfork, activate on 95% (or higher) acceptance
23:29 < geezas> right, that's the context in which I'm interested in pondering and discussing this concept
23:29 < sipa> there is nothing to measure for  hardforks
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23:30 < sipa> well if you need years in advance to plan a mechanism to solve mining centralization (which is a pretty short term thing)...
23:31 < geezas> *hopefully* a short term thing
23:32 < jb55> sipa how long you think it will be before we can start using those smexy bech32 addresses
23:33 < sipa> well if you give hardware manufacturers years to adapt, you aren't solving much, right?
23:33 < sipa> jb55: bitcoin core 0.15.1 will support them; i don't know about other wallet software
23:35 < geezas> well, if PoW had an expiration date, it could potentially reduce the incentive for big long-term investments
23:36 < sipa> what happens when it expires?
23:37 < geezas> so image there are let's say 3 PoWs at any given time
23:37 < sipa> what if they all expire?
23:37 < geezas> every once in a while a new PoW is put up to replace the oldest one
23:38 < sipa> who decides what the next PoW is?
23:38 < geezas> given there is a strong consensus in some way
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23:38 < geezas> well, who decides what goes into bitcoin reference client now?
23:38 < jb55> wouldn't miners with the most money just invest in N different types of ASICs of the pow cycled? making it harder for individuals to participate?
23:39 < sipa> geezas: software maintainers, but they're not relevant
23:39 < sipa> geezas: people still have to choose to run the software
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23:40 < sipa> which incentivizes maintainers to only implement things that have consensus already
23:42 < jb55> sipa: hypothetical scenario where stakes get too high and btc is worth too much that competitors begin "taking out" core devs. Do you worry about this?
23:42 < jb55> will it ever need to go full anonymous?
23:42 < sipa> i don't know
23:43 < geezas> I guess in a nutshell, I believe, introducing a new PoW, in certain circumstances, can introduce bursts of decentralized mining. Probably never in way that mining was in the early days - single users with PCs - but still in a way that a churns the mining players a bit.
23:43 < geezas> that might as well be a small enough effect where it's not worth the effort
23:44 < jb55> stay safe man buy guns
23:45 < geezas> just a reminder, I'm in no way trying to push this - just interested in the thought experiment
23:46 < geezas> sipa, thanks for your time and input on this
23:47 < sipa> there are so many conflicting goals in this questiin
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23:48 < sipa> for example, long termninvestments in hardware are clearly a centralizing factor
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23:49 < sipa> but they also help align mining incentives - a system that needs to remain valuable for months or years for miners to break even requires said miner to not attack the system for short term gain
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23:53 < jb55> afaik the only proposed miner takover is a long sustained *ideological* attack which seems pretttty unlikely unless they like burning money
23:54 < jb55> and you would need a decent chunk of them doing this as well...
23:55 < jb55> if they somehow get really good at propaganda they could convince the masses as well
23:55 < jb55> keeps me up at night
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23:56 < jb55> proaganda seems like the most likely attack route going forward
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--- Log closed Tue Oct 24 00:00:49 2017