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11:52 < maaku> JackH: https://www.coindesk.com/master-plan-better-bitcoin-smart-contracts-go-live-year/
11:52 < maaku> JackH: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-September/014932.html
11:53 < maaku> JackH: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-September/015028.html
11:53 < maaku> coded and working, but needs to be updated to the latest spec
11:54 < JackH> I missed the topics on the last two links, thanks maaku
11:54 < maaku> will have bip numbers assigned soon, and begin the process of formally proposing to Bitcoin Core in the next month
11:54 < arubi> wait, generalized mast?
11:55 < kanzure> maaku: maybe wait to see what the script 2.0 people are going to be saying
11:55 < arubi> /reading
11:55 < maaku> arubi: the last link is the intuitive explanation
11:55 < maaku> kanzure: "script 2.0 people" ?
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11:55 < JackH> there is a script 2.0 coming? Is that the activation of all the opcodes you refer to kanzure ?
11:55 < kanzure> script 2.0 *proposals*
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11:56 < maaku> JackH: no, there's not, but there's lots of people working on new script-like things or various improvements
11:56 < maaku> kanzure: are you talking about something specific?
11:56 < kanzure> just an upcoming presentation
11:56 < arubi> is that the script in bip114?
11:58 < maaku> so there is another MAST proposal, bip114, and the largest delay to activating MAST will probably be gathering consensus about which approach to take first
11:59 < arubi> I've been following bip114 closely, the new vault bip (seems to be replacing it the old one) is amazing imo
11:59 < maaku> I'm obviously strongly biased towards my own approach, but objectively I think the incremental, small, compartmentalized changes are more likely to be accepted by the conservative dev team than bip114's comprehensive overhaul
12:00 < maaku> my proposal is for two very small changes, both just a few lines of code, which gives us MAST (and other things too!)
12:00 < maaku> bip114 is a massive patch set to the consensus code on the other hand
12:01 < JackH> what is the actual difference feature wise between the two?
12:01 < arubi> it is, but it's also a huge upgrade to bitcoin script, which is what I like about it the most
12:01 < arubi> and p2wpkv0 with scriptwitcodes and sig \ pubkey aggregation :)
12:02 < arubi> but I'll go back to reading yours now
12:02 < JackH> there is also the fact that, seeing how hard it is to get patches through right now, anything we can deploy is welcome
12:03 < arubi> the proposal was pretty big.  stuff like checksigfromstack, pushtxdata, new treatment for cltv \ csv, signatures at constant length
12:03 < arubi> that's not even mentioning the mast part
12:04 < maaku> arubi: an omnibus proposal will never, and should never make it into bitcoin core.
12:04 < arubi> I played with it around locally, it's really great.  the new opcodes and new sighash enables covenants
12:04 < maaku> that's not how bitcoin development works. too dangerous
12:04 < maaku> There are good reasons to upgrade script. It is an interesting research area. It is actually what I work on most of the time in my dayjob right now.
12:04 < arubi> I see what you're saying.  it was divided to many bips fwiw
12:05 < maaku> The tail-call MAST proposal came from working on a script upgrade, where I realized these two simple tricks were deployable and got bang for the buck
12:05 < arubi> well, we're not short of segwit script versions yet
12:05 < maaku> i think if you want to get something in bitcoin core, work on making it incremental and easily reviewable
12:06 < arubi> maaku, bip114 is exactly that, it's divided to many bips, I was able to follow it easily and use it successfully
12:06 < maaku> -or-, make it modular with a single entry point if you really must replace the whole thing, but that's a many-year effort to roll out
12:07 < arubi> I'll read through the two posts.  I don't have an intuition to what tail call means yet
12:07 < maaku> arubi: I'm not talking about the description in the bip. I mean the code. It makes changes to so many parts of the consensus code -- script, witness, signature validation. it adds consensus criticality to data that wasn't there before. it adds multi-mode behavior to functions that use to have one purpose, etc.
12:08 < arubi> yes, I agree maaku.  it can't possibly go in in a "single sweep"
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12:09 < maaku> MERKLEBRANCHVERIFY on the other hand is a single "case" statement in the script evaluator, entirely self-contained, and tail-call eval is a 3-4 line change with clear semantics to the bottom of one function
12:09 < JackH> maaku, since you sit with this a lot, do you have some higher level overview of what you can do with the MAST features?
12:09 < arubi> so is it that the final value on stack is treated as a script in itself?
12:09 < arubi> well, I shouldn't guess.  just read
12:10 < maaku> you can separate those, look at them in isolation and show their correctness (maybe even prove their correctness to the C++ standard)
12:10 < maaku> that's the bar we should have for consensus code, and bip114 is too complex to achieve that
12:10 < maaku> JackH: you read the second email?
12:11 < maaku> that's the most I've written down about it so far
12:11 < JackH> reading now
12:11 < JackH> you have this running locally?
12:11 < arubi> I'm a bit biased maaku, I've been following bip114 since v0.13.1 and implemented a bunch of it.  I have a lot of fun using it.  sure that's not proper review, but I didn't find inconsistencies yet, and I do run the regtest network with other versions :)
12:11 < maaku> arubi: essentially, yes, the final item is treated as a script (if there is more than one item remaining, aka non-CLEANSTACK)
12:12 < maaku> arubi: oh sorry I didn't know you worked on it or I would have expressed that a little bit more carefully ;) at least you got my honest opinion
12:12 < arubi> oh not worked on it at all, just independently!
12:13 < arubi> I did do two PRs to the current repo with a simple tx example for tests and the bip, but no response yet :)
12:13 < maaku> JackH: this was part of the elements network that we ran at BC-2 workshop in Japan over the summer. it works and has been used for things.
12:13 < arubi> independently in my own bitcoin toy thing, tried to interface with it and it went very well
12:14 < maaku> actually the BC-2 version had full recursion, not just single-recursion, which meant it was Turing complete. You could do loops, etc.
12:14 < maaku> I'm obviously not proposing that to bitcoin core (...yet. it would be a soft-fork to add later)
12:17 < JackH> i see you lightly touch the gas issue
12:18 < maaku> The problem with gas (meaning just accounting for resource usage) isn't that you have to do it, but that naive ways of doing it are not good and dangerous
12:18 < maaku> I think it's a solveable problem.
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12:24 < maaku> But there's no reason to bite off that problem now when we can do single-recursion and just leave the door open to soft-forking multi-recursion in the future
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12:36 < maaku> arubi: JackH: here are some slides https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1_uW-7CEqL0-RMug3G8mjBh4nAjXdAjCp7-bijD2UvzQ/edit?usp=sharing
12:36 < maaku> and https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1HItJPs3UOwcHwWSxOF0c_0FClWe9TikTA12d0pQZwfE/edit?usp=sharing
12:37 < arubi> cool, thanks
12:38 < maaku> it's not any more description than are in the BIPs, but it does have worked out examples and RPC demonstrations
12:42 < JackH> nice, I will check these out
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--- Log closed Fri Oct 27 00:00:48 2017