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[~quassel@164.31.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:53 -!- daszorz [~daszorz@cpc106809-live29-2-0-cust896.17-2.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:54 -!- leonidaz0r [~leonidaz0@2a02:aa16:3a81:7a80:a00:27ff:fe9f:b49] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:56 -!- leonidaz0r [~leonidaz0@2a02:aa16:3a81:7a80:a00:27ff:fe9f:b49] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:07 -!- jb55 [~jb55@208.98.200.100] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:08 < kanzure> "a signature is zero knowledge argument of knowledge that you know the private key" 13:09 < kanzure> but doesn't this require knowledge of the public key?? 13:09 < kanzure> oops one too many question marks 13:09 < Alanius> proof of knowledge refers to the existence of an extractor machine 13:10 < Alanius> wait, nevermind 13:11 -!- rmwb [~rmwb@129.180.74.120] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:12 < Alanius> in the case of zero-knowledge based signature schemes, the public key is usually a known function of the secret key; so obtaining the public key from the secret key is trivial 13:15 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:16 -!- rmwb [~rmwb@129.180.74.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:22 -!- rmwb [~rmwb@2001:df0:ce:1601:ddae:959a:6459:d66b] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:22 < kanzure> ok, so the argument is that it's still zero knowledge since you don't learn anything about the private key (even though you learn which signatures it has made, if you see the signature) 13:22 < kanzure> ? 13:23 < Alanius> yeah, but that can only hold in the random oracle as far as I know 13:25 < Alanius> because the whole clue of zero-knowledge is that a simulator can generate the entire transcript without knowledge of the secret; if you want to make it non-interactive you have to enable the simulator to program the random oracle to give the right responses to certain queries 13:26 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:27 < Alanius> if you instantiate the random oracle with a hash function (unprogrammable) you can obviously tell simulated transcripts from authentic ones; but for the security argument, modeling the hash function as a programmable random oracle is good enough 13:30 < Alanius> zero-knowledge means there exists a simulator that can generate valid transcripts without the secret that are indistinguishable from authentic; indistinguishable can only be defined with respect to distinguishers who in the random oracle model only have oracle access, which explains why the distinguisher cannot tell the reprogramming has occurred 13:35 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:40 -!- rmwb [~rmwb@2001:df0:ce:1601:ddae:959a:6459:d66b] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:40 -!- ariard [~user@x4db4b1b2.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 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[~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:43 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:47 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:50 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@xdsl-31-164-62-119.adslplus.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:53 -!- bxbxb [~bxbxb@irc.clone.army] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:53 -!- hnfgns [~hg@c-69-181-121-195.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:54 -!- dcousens [~dcousens@CPE-101-181-25-209.lnse4.cha.bigpond.net.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:56 -!- boreddanman [182cec5f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.44.236.95] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:57 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:59 -!- hnfgns [~hg@c-69-181-121-195.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:02 -!- pavle_ [~pavle_@cable-178-149-200-121.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:02 < adlai> what do you mean by 'unprogrammable'? i assume any function is computable... you mean the instantiation is unique each time around? 15:03 -!- ariard [~user@x4db4b1b2.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:08 < Alanius> the random oracle responds with random values to each query, but always the same response to the same query as long as you're in the same experiment; the simulator (whose existence may be required for a crypto proof, for instance) can use this to its advantage: by presenting the simulated algorithm with a view of the random oracle that is identical except for a select few query-response pairs 15:08 < sipa> tl;dr: "programmable" is a technical term with a specific meaning in security proofs 15:09 < Alanius> yes, that ^^ 15:09 -!- spinza [~spin@196.212.164.26] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:11 < Alanius> the key point that makes the proof work is that the simulated algorithm has no clue it's dealing with a fake random oracle; but the "programmed" query-response pairs are enough to enable the simulator generate zk proof transcripts, or invert rsa, or do whatever seemingly impossible task 15:14 -!- cluelessperson [~cluelessp@unaffiliated/cluelessperson] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:15 < Alanius> the hash function is obviously the same each time round; but the proof models the hash function by a random oracle which is different each time around because it is drawn uniformly at random from the set of all discrete functions that map to the given output space 15:15 -!- bxbxb [~bxbxb@irc.clone.army] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:20 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:21 -!- hnfgns [~hg@50-255-60-105-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:24 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:26 -!- 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