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07:26 < JackH> would the idea be to incorporate bulletproofs into Bitcoin eventually? as I understand this would make it mimblewimble style as all transactions would be confidential as well?
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07:33 < waxwing> JackH, i think it's fair to say that most people would *like* CT to get incorporated into Bitcoin, and that *if* people develop sufficient confidence in the soundness of bulletproofs, it will make that eventuality far more likely.
07:34 < waxwing> (that's the direct application of bulletproofs in Bitcoin - it makes the rangeproofs in confidential transactions much more feasible)
07:35 < waxwing> there is the matter of the commitments to amounts being only computationally binding. the paper addresses that concern in one section, maybe 4.6 i forget. that concern was already there in the original CT (pedersen commitments)
07:37 < JackH> apart from the fact the paper is new and still untested elsewhere, I would say this would be a good addition to Bitcoin
07:37  * waxwing muses that a fight over whether CT goes into Bitcoin might make the segwit fight look like a lovers' tiff :)
07:40 < waxwing> JackH, i think the tldr is something like 'if the paper is correct, it makes CT go from "kinda unacceptably too space-using unless you really fudge it around" too "not really that much more space using at all than ordinary transactions, if you manage to aggregate" ', but i dunno, i think there's a lot of analysis to be done.
07:40 < JackH> early days, and most likely used in a clone to BTC before it even gets close to a BIP
07:42 < sipa> the complication is the soundness that depends on elliptic curves
07:42 < waxwing> well, maybe, maybe not. this is not like MW; it's just a change to how one part of CT works. MW changes everything.
07:42 < sipa> if EC ever gets broken, a CT based on bulletproofs would permit undetectable inflation in bitcoin
07:42 < sipa> or at least without further precautions
07:43 < waxwing> sipa, so you're not talking about pedersen commitments already having that property?
07:43 < sipa> waxwing: i was lumping pedersen/rangeproofs/bulletproofs into one
07:43 < waxwing> right
07:43 < sipa> yes, that's a problem inherent in pedersen commitments
07:44 < waxwing> it's confusing right because there were proposals to do CT with elgamal
07:44 < waxwing> or at least so i heard, i didn't read it
07:44 < andytoshi> waxwing: so, independently the pedersen commitments have a soundness problem (can be opened to any value) and the rangeproofs have a soundness problem (can you make a fake proof)
07:45 < andytoshi> these are tied into each other beacuse the rangeproof inherently needs to use the commitment structure, but they're kinda independent
07:45 < waxwing> andytoshi, ah ok, two things i see. but amusingly they have a similar result.
07:45 < andytoshi> yeah exactly :)
07:45 < sipa> waxwing: but bulletproofs cannot be applied (or extended) to work with ElGanal
07:45 < sipa> while our former range proof construction can
07:45 < waxwing> sipa, gotcha
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10:50 < oleganza> waxwing: complications arise from the compression. Bulletproofs are more compact than digit-by-digit range proofs, which makes them inherently sound only computationally.
10:50 < oleganza> from the paper (section 4.6):
10:50 < oleganza> > The efficiency of the system relies on vector commitments which allow the commitment to a long vector in a single group element. By definition, for perfectly binding commitment schemes, the size of the commitment must be at least the size of the message and compression is thus impossible.
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10:57 < andytoshi> well, in fairness, the message here is the value which is only 64 bits or so. it is theoretically permissible to avoid this 256-bits-times-64 blowup
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10:58 < andytoshi> so you can't get log-size in the range but maybe some moon-math will let you get a much smaller constant
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11:02 < instagibbs> speaking of which did either of you convince yourselves of unconditionally sound Confidential Assets?
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11:12 < oleganza> Well, the thing with unconditionally sound CA requires more complicated way of merging/splitting value in ZK due to the fact that you have multiple assets, not one. That is, commitments and rangeproofs can be sound, but tx balancing must be sound too. See discussion here: https://github.com/apoelstra/secp256k1-mw/pull/1#issuecomment-297076697
11:19 < oleganza> I think we have a good understanding on how to make it happen, and even without significant overhead and fully compatible with CoinJoin.
11:20 < oleganza> However, bulletproofs seem to allow merging multiple values in one rangeproof which is a fantastic scalability feature which makes them very interesting. E.g. we can imagine a "vertical" payment channel (opposed to "horizontal" one like a lightning network) where only users doing payment _right now_ have to cooperate to sign one tx collectively that uses a variant of a merkle sum tree to compress individual payments, then going their ways. As opp
11:20 < oleganza> to "horizontal" cooperation in LN where intermediate nodes that don't do payments of their own have to be online to propagate balance changes.
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11:35 < kanzure> oleganza: you have irc linetext cutoff
11:36 < kanzure> oleganza: check logs http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2017-11-09.log
11:36 < oleganza> trying again: as opposed to "horizontal" cooperation in LN where intermediate nodes that don't do payments of their own have to be online to propagate balance changes.
11:36 < oleganza> kanzure: thx
11:37 < kanzure> ok only a few letters missing.
11:37 < instagibbs> my brain filled that in, tbh
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--- Log closed Fri Nov 10 00:00:11 2017