--- Log opened Sat Nov 11 00:00:12 2017
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03:17 < gougee> I sincerely hope i don't sound dumb here.  Ive been on irc for ages and watched btc since the begining but i simply don't understand what is happening here.  I have 4 btc w coinbase and they sent me an email saying that they are holding my btc in bitcoin cash as well.  What does this mean?  I am a poorfuc and this shit freaks me out cause i don't understand what they are doing...
03:18 < gougee> Anyone here that can help me understand?
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03:59 < JackH> #bitcoin is better
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10:08 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYmnXxs9kUM
10:08 < yoleaux> Towards Transparent and Scalable Computational Integrity and Privacy - YouTube
10:09 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJ9K_o-RRSY
10:09 < yoleaux> Transparent scalable computational integrity - Eli Ben Sasson, Silicon Valley ethereum meetup - YouTube
10:09 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15675898
10:09 < yoleaux> STARKs, Part I: Proofs with Polynomials | Hacker News
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10:39 < kanzure> bulletproofs https://eprint.iacr.org/2017/1066
10:39 < kanzure> "Sharding PoW-based Blockchains via Proofs of Knowledge" https://eprint.iacr.org/2017/1067
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11:53 < Taek> luke-jr: I can say with confidence that blake is a suboptimal choice for an ASIC-friendly algorithm
11:53 < Taek> The problem is that it contains both rotates and additions, both of which are difficult to implement optimally in hardware.
11:54 < Taek> SHA3 on the other hand doesn't have as many constructions which cause headaches for ASIC designers
11:55 < sipa> my very vague ideas about constructing a PoW function are that you should use a very cheap but large non-cryptographic expansion stage first on the block header
11:55 < sipa> and then use a cryptographic hash function on the expansion
11:56 < sipa> by making the block header effectively affect the cryptographic hash function's input many times, the ability to optimize for specific values in it is reduced
11:57 < sipa> i also think that PoW changes are a very nuclear option, and not something to consider in the short term
11:57 < sipa> though havin research available won't hurt
11:58 < Taek> sipa: I don't know a ton about secure hash function design, but my feeling is that you'd want a bunch (like thousands) of really simple rounds which are basically just hardcoded s-boxes for a really wide input
11:59 < Taek> ASICs aren't restricted to doing 64bit operations the way normal CPUs are. From a design perspective, as long as you stick to simple bitwise operations it's really easy to have registers that are multiple kb large
12:01 < Taek> I'm also strongly against a PoW change. Imo you should only ever do it if it becomes transparently obvious that Bitcoin won't survive without one.
12:03 < sipa> the concerns a PoW function has are different from a hash function
12:03 < sipa> the only thing that makes hash function design hard these days seems to be performance
12:03 < sipa> and losing a factor 100 in performance for PoW doesn't sound like a big deal
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14:35 < esotericnonsense> jumping in here as someone who hasn't designed this sort of circuitry, it seems to me that what is meant by 'asic-friendly' in this context is not really related to the performance
14:35 < esotericnonsense> e.g. it doesn't really matter how much faster the optimal ASIC is vs. the optimal CPU/GPU algorithm
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14:36 < esotericnonsense> what seems more relevant is that there aren't non-obvious optimisations that result in some future generation of hardware being far faster than the previous
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14:39 < esotericnonsense> the speed is essentially irrelevant I would think as long as verification isn't too low (I guess there would be some silly bound on performance somewhere, if one round of hashing took ten seconds it wouldn't be 'progress free' for example)
14:39 < esotericnonsense> slow*
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14:48 < sipa> esotericnonsense: indeed, the only goal is removing non-obvious optimjzsations
14:48 < sipa> you want the implementation to be as straightforward as possible
14:49 < sipa> esotericnonsense: i'd say checking PoW can't take more than a millisecond or so
14:49 < sipa> but it doesn't have to be a microsecond like it is now
14:51 < esotericnonsense> we also overload the PoW at the moment (by using the same function for PoW and for identifying the block)
14:52 < esotericnonsense> it's not obvious to me that it's necessary to do that, just simpler
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15:17 < sipa> esotericnonsense: if PoW checking is more expensive it'd be better to not reuse it for hashing
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23:01 < adlai> sipa: what distinguishes operations as cryptographic or non-cryptographic? re: your earlier "very cheap but large non-..." comment
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23:30 < sipa> adlai: xorshift, lsfr, ... are non-cryptograohic
--- Log closed Sun Nov 12 00:00:13 2017