--- Log opened Sat Nov 18 00:00:18 2017
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04:30 < waxwing> andytoshi, so i'm curious about the fiat-shamir part; i have a vague understanding of 'hash the prover-verifier transcript up to that point', but i note that your and buenz's code hashes L, R, P, and specifically the L, R values at that iteration. is there some specific way to figure out/justify that it's exactly that set of data that needs to be hashed here?
04:30 < waxwing> (here talking about the inner product argument ofc)
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05:20 <@andytoshi> my code hashes the previous hash as well
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05:20 <@andytoshi> anyway, the set of data that needs to be hashed is specifically everything that had been communicated up to that point
05:21 < waxwing> right, thanks, makes sense. and including the previous hash is a logical way of doing that.
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05:31 <@andytoshi> yup
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12:52 < scalar> A consumer 1 TB SSD can do 90,000 random read or writes per second.  This is enough for billions of people to make a few TXs per second.  I don't understand where the UTXO bottleneck is.  Can someone explain?
12:53 < scalar> * a few TXs per day, I mean
12:59 < scalar> I'm trying to understand the scaling debate, and people keep saying the problem is that if there were billions of users, the UTXO set would be 1 TB+ in size.  But I don't see why that's a problem.
12:59 < scalar> I was told to come here and ask the wizards.
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13:03 < sipa> just keeping uo with transactions in the chain is not nearly enough
13:04 < sipa> validation time needs to be orders of magnitude faster than inter block time
13:04 < sipa> if you don't want propagation delay
13:04 < scalar> Just for miners, right?  Non-mining nodes just need to keep up, correct?
13:06 < sipa> yes and no... the propagation speed across the public p2p network sets a maximum bound on what advantages a large miner can have over a smaller one
13:07 < scalar> Do you mean propagation speed for transactions or blocks?
13:07 < sipa> blocms
13:07 < sipa> blocks
13:08 < sipa> miners don't need to incur a propagation delay when they build on top of their own blocks
13:08 < sipa> so larger miners benefit from propagation delay on the network being larger
13:08 < scalar> And you think UTXO lookups when the UTXO set becomes very large would be the bottleneck?
13:09 < sipa> possibly
13:10 < sipa> we very heavily rely on caching recent UTXO entries in bitcoin core
13:10 < sipa> even on SSDs
13:11 < scalar> But an SSD that can do 90,000 random IOPS seems very fast.
13:11 < sipa> that's only 90 txins per ms
13:12 < sipa> blocks have thousands of inputs
13:12 < scalar> Right, but I understand that most transactions are validated prior to receiving the block, thanks to compact blocks (and later maybe Graphene)
13:12 < sipa> right, but that only works in non-adverserial settings
13:13 < sipa> when miners don't produce blocks full of previously unknown transactions
13:13 < scalar> You mean miners intentionally making blocks that validate / propagate slowly?
13:14 < sipa> right, it's not an attack we've seen
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13:14 < sipa> but it's a totally plausible variant of selfish minknh
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13:14 < scalar> How is that possible to prevent though?  If I wanted to make a block I mined propagate slowly, I could just wait for a while before sending it, or send it out slowly.
13:15 < sipa> yes, that's a fair point
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13:18 < scalar> OK it sounds like my thinking was correct regarding the UTXO set.  People were saying that it would cost $20,000 for enough memory to store it at scale, which seemed like nonsense.
13:18 < scalar> And it is nonsense.
13:18 < sipa> i haven't seen that number
13:18 < sipa> i'm more worried about unbounded growth, though
13:19 < scalar> I think it came from some talk by the Australian who claimed to be Satoshi.
13:21 < scalar> I would imagine that the UTXO set size is most strongly related to the number of users.  An equilibrium would be reached where outputs were destroyed at the same rate they were created (plus perhaps a bit due to lost coins).
13:23 < sipa> long term, i'd like to see a model where the UTXO set does not actually impact resource costs
13:23 < scalar> Even if every person in the world had 10 outputs, that's still just 80 billion entries.  Doesn't see too tough really.
13:24 < sipa> but why would it not grow beyond 10?
13:24 < sipa> there is not really an incentive for that
13:25 < scalar> I'm not sure what the equilibrium would be, but wouldn't there have to be an equilibrium somewhere, at the point where outputs are destroyed at the same rate they are created.
13:25 < sipa> i don't see why there would be an equilibrium at all
13:25 < sipa> based on fee pressume, some utxos are not economical to spend
13:26 < scalar> Logically then, doesn't that imply that coins will continue to be split until everything is 1 sat dust?
13:26 < scalar> I guess I just don't see that.  It would be interesting to look at real data from wallet to see what the "equilibrium number of outputs" is after long term use.
13:27 < sipa> http://bitcoin.sipa.be/utxo_size.png
13:27 < sipa> that's old data, it's about double now
13:27 < sipa> the spike around summer '15 was a spam attack that resulted in huge amounts of utxos that are not economical to spend
13:28 < scalar> Which makes sense, because we're going users.  But if the number of users were fixed, then that chart would flat line eventually (plus perhaps a bit due to lost coins).
13:28 < scalar> *going = gaining
13:31 < scalar> I need to think more about your speed argument for miners, but in terms of the size of the UTXO set, I really don't see it ever been a problem, unless there's some stong mechanism for unbound growth.  But I don't think there is.
13:36 < sipa> wrt miners, we need to avoid situations where there validation is slow enough that miners are willing to take the risk to forego it
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13:37 < sipa> which unfortunately is already happening - many miners listen to each other's pools and build on top of the work advertized there before they've even seen the block on the network themselves
13:37 < sipa> which resulted in e.g. a pretty long fork at the time of BIP66's activation
13:38 < sipa> because one minority miner built an invalid block (according to the new rules), and then a majority of larger miners (which themselves did implement the new rule) started building blocks on top of that invalid ones - while their own nodes never saw the new invalid block
13:39 < sipa> an incentive for miners to not validate is pretty dangerous to the network, as at the very least it undermines (ha!) SPV security
13:40 < sipa> and worst of all, it's not really observable to what extent it happens, until it is too late
13:41 < sipa> you can of course argue that miners easily have access to funds to afford much faster hardware than network nodes that don't have any intent more than just keeping up
13:45 < scalar> Yes, I agree completely.  But what is nice is that they can only mine empty blocks, and so forgo fees, if they don't validate.  As fees become a larger part of the reward, there will be more incentive to validate.
13:46 < sipa> mining empty blocks on top of an invalid block is still bad for the network
13:47 < sipa> i do agree that fees taking over will improve thid
13:47 < scalar> I agree.  I just mean more fees make it less likely to happen
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--- Log closed Sun Nov 19 00:00:19 2017