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10:44 < nsh> does anyone feel they can give a [somewhat] layman's sketch of how the bulletproofs rangeproofs work conceptually yet?
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10:53 <@andytoshi> nsh: it breaks the value into bits, and proves that each bit satisfies X*(1-X)=0, i.e. it is a bit, and that sum_i 2^i X_i = v, i.e. these are the right bits, by multiplying all n+1 of those equations by random hash challenges (1, y, y^2, ..., y^n, z) which are hashes of (a) commitments to the bits, (b) commitments to blinding factors. this can be expressed as a dot product <{x_i}, {1 - x_i +
10:53 <@andytoshi> z*2^i}> which should equal z*v
10:54 <@andytoshi> to hide everything, the prover chooses random blinding factors s_i for each bit (actually two of them, one for the bit and one for the complement) and adds these times yet another hash challenge x. there are two pedersen commitments that are added, ane for the bits (and their complements) and one for the blinding factors
10:55 <@andytoshi> then the sum (weighted by the appropriate hash challenges) of all the blinding factors of these pedersen commitments is revealed in two halves, each containing at least 2 blinding factors to ensure that none of them are actually revealed
10:57 <@andytoshi> which is sufficient for the verifier to add the original pedersen commitment to the weighted-by-hash-challenges aux pedersen commitments, and it expects to get g^t where t is a sum of all the garbage cross-terms from the original dot product equation
10:58 <@andytoshi> the proof is constructed so that `t` is a pure function of the hash challenges so the verifier knows what it should be
10:58 <@andytoshi> in addation, the prover provides an inner-product proof showing that this `t` came organically from doing the original inner-product equation, and the prover didn't just make it up to pracate the verifier
10:58 <@andytoshi> that's roughly it
10:58 <@andytoshi> i don't know if that provided any clarity :P
10:59 <@andytoshi> s/pracate/placate/
10:59 < nsh> thank you kindly andytoshi! will ponder and see if i grok :)
10:59 < waxwing> have you 'finished' coding the range proof part yet andytoshi ?  at least non-aggregated
11:00 <@andytoshi> waxwing: i have a prover but no verifier, and i haven't tested the prover to see if it barfs on its own sanity checks
11:00 <@andytoshi> so.. no :P
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11:01 < waxwing> how can we boil down the explanation ... non trivial exercise ... basically make the t0 (constant term in t = l.r) have no dependency on the vector of bits in the value, if and only if the vector of bits is exactly bits (ones and zeros)
11:02 < waxwing> and then leverage the compactness of the inner product proof
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11:03 <@andytoshi> that's roughly it. but you have to mix in the original pedersen commitment and you also have to make the higher-order terms go away without revealing the whole polynomial
11:04 <@andytoshi> the former is easy enough, t0 does actually have the value in it multiplied by z^2, so the verifier adds z^2*V to the verification equation
11:04 < waxwing> right, was gonna say, you also have to commit to the other coefficients and .. i guess you can say, leverage the homomorphism ... but whichever way i look it i find it hard to understand it as a whole.
11:04 <@andytoshi> and for the latter there are these extra points T_1 and T_2 that you reveal and you reveal a weighted sum of their blinding factors (which does not reveal either individual blinding factor)
11:05 <@andytoshi> to understand it i basically had to implement it, and every time something was hard to code or slow i tried to remove it from the protocol and spent a while figuring out what broke each time
11:06 < waxwing> right :) i'm writing it in python, the inner product wasn't hard at all really, but the range proof .. ;) and yes i am completely ignoring the hard stuff (e.g. just recursive no unrolling).
11:08 < nsh> waxwing, online or offline? (wouldn't mind a peek to facilitate my comprehension)
11:09 < waxwing> i'll probably throw it on gh if i get it sorta kinda working. it won't be pretty though. note both benedikt and andytoshi have code on github already.
11:10 < waxwing> needless to say it's just for self-education :)
11:10  * nsh nods
11:10 < nsh> sure :) trying not to resort to reading java
11:11 < waxwing> heh, well apart from some non-orthodox spelling, benedikt's code isn't that hard to read :)
11:11 < nsh> ah, ok
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12:29 < akrmn> so I read about SNARKs. They provide proofs of length in the few hundred bytes, nice and short but relies on ECC so I assume not safe for proving no inflation is coming from sidechains. Then there's STARKs, can't find much info but from what I read they are quantum resistant and no trusted setup required, and proofs in the hundreds of kilobytes. While this may seem like a lot of data to put for segwit data, can't you just put 
12:29 < akrmn> Have each sidechain generate one proof, then have a proof that shows that those proofs were verified?
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12:58 < nsh> curious about the 'correction factor' which is introduced by applying the iterative inner-product protocol to vectors in parallel...
13:01 <@andytoshi> where is that mentioned?
13:01 < nsh> p13
13:02 < nsh> ''  Additionally,we show in Protocol 1 that this can also be done for two vectors in parallel suchthat  the  inner  product  of  the  two  vectors  does  only  changes  by  a  correctionfactor which the verifier again can compute himself from the challenge'
13:02 < nsh> typo seemingly where "does not change" was changed :)
13:02 < nsh> some kinda rounding figure to keep during aggregation i assume
13:03 < Chris_Stewart_5> Does anyone have a concrete test vector of this clause in BIP32: "In case parse256(IL) ≥ n or Ki is the point at infinity, the resulting key is invalid, and one should proceed with the next value for i."
13:04 < Chris_Stewart_5> the bip says it happens when deriving a child pubkey from a master pubkey
13:04 <@andytoshi> nsh: not sure what is meant by that tbh
13:04 <@andytoshi> i think it's supposed to be a description of protocol 1
13:04 < nsh> kk
13:04 < sipa> Chris_Stewart_5: it's impossible to construct a test vector for that
13:05 < sipa> at least on secp256k1
13:05 < sipa> on secp256r1 you could, due to the ratio between field size and group size being much larger
13:05 < sipa> *difference between
13:06 < nsh> what do we win if we find one?
13:07 < Chris_Stewart_5> sipa: So basically secp256k1 will cause a failure if you try and parse something >= n ?
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13:12 < sipa> Chris_Stewart_5: libsecp256k1?
13:12 < Chris_Stewart_5> ah i filled in the lib
13:12 < sipa> the tweak_add functions (which you'd normally use for bip32 derivation) will fail in the case of overfloe, yes
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13:14 < Chris_Stewart_5> so bip32 is meant to be generalized for any curve
13:14 < Chris_Stewart_5> and that is why that clause needs to be there?
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13:23 < akrmn> So no one knows or I should ask on the mailing list? I don't see much discussing on starks in the logs, but at least I would like to know if it is possible to prove supply consistency with starks & sidechains assuming they do what they claim.
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13:25 <@andytoshi> akrmn: there is no general-purpose zk proof system that can handle proving validity of a whole blockchain
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13:25 < sipa> Chris_Stewart_5: i added it at the time because of a recommendation by a cryptographer, but i assume he wasn't aware of the fact that it is infeasible to hut that case
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13:29 < akrmn> andytoshi: ok...well if you have links to proof of that or more reading so that I can understand, that would be great. I guess it is trivial for you but not so obvious for me
13:33 < akrmn> because I'm not talking about proving validity of a whole blockchain in one proof, just validity of sidechain transfers for one block
13:36 <@andytoshi> there's no difference
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13:44 < sipa> akrmn: to prove a move back from the sidechain was legal, you need to prove that its entire history in the sidechain was legal
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13:56 < akrmn> hmm more things to think about. I guess the problem is that with each new block for the sidechain, there is an extra computational step to do, so the amount of steps/ cpu power needed keeps growing with time. My initial thinking is just to set a limit for the height of the sidechain, and force everyone to settle back at that time, but need to think some more, thanks.
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14:03 < akrmn> so maybe it will not be exactly a textbook definition of a blockchain, but I think anything that involves mining bitcoins without merge mining would provide more miner decentralization (not just scaling by adding the ability to spend smaller amounts on the sidechain)
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14:14 < nsh> i guess the correction factor is k(y,z) which you must update/collate as/when you aggregate rangeproofs
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14:19 <@andytoshi> that could be it
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14:37 < akrmn> If there's any useful applications with these ideas, I want to try to code them with testnet (I already have experience working with Bitcoin Core code). Just I am thinking it may be useless without some library for starks available, also want to make sure I am not wasting my time, that's why I'm asking here first. I know sipa mentioned snarks as a solution to this problem earlier so would be good to also know what kind of snar
14:44 <@andytoshi> no library exists which can do what you want
14:46 < kanzure> "use a snark" might be part of the ansewr but it's a long way from the point where someone can sit down and write relevant code
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17:09 < nsh> if all of the bits in a single inner-product argued rangeproof are committed in order, then presumably the entire aggregated rangeproof is committing to ranges in some canonical order?
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17:28 <@andytoshi> typically all of the ranges would be the same
17:28 <@andytoshi> but yes, there is an ordering that the verifier needs to understand
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18:02  * nsh nods
18:02 < nsh> (i meant individual rangeproofs sorry)
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22:17 < geezas> anyone awake?
22:25 < eck> sorry, no
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22:42 < geezas> great, someone is
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--- Log closed Tue Nov 21 00:00:21 2017