--- Log opened Sun Dec 17 00:00:45 2017 00:00 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:01 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:08 -!- spinza [~spin@196.212.164.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:14 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:16 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:22 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:23 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:34 -!- arubi_ [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:34 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:39 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-keypdutfnajoxfro] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:07 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:08 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:12 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:14 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:15 -!- spinza [~spin@196.212.164.26] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:16 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:22 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:38 -!- bitbuddy [~bitbuddy@69-16-151-185.wireless.puregig.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:40 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:41 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:43 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:45 -!- Provoostenator [~Provooste@ec2-18-194-164-183.eu-central-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.6.3+deb1 - http://znc.in] 01:45 -!- Emcy_ [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:48 -!- shesek [~shesek@bzq-84-110-54-147.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:48 -!- shesek [~shesek@bzq-84-110-54-147.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:48 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:49 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:50 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:51 -!- bitbuddy [~bitbuddy@69-16-151-185.wireless.puregig.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:52 -!- bitbuddy [~bitbuddy@69-16-151-185.wireless.puregig.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:12 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ahqizduoiyamnrxq] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 02:12 -!- bitbuddy [~bitbuddy@69-16-151-185.wireless.puregig.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:29 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:31 < Sentineo> andytoshi: what does fixed point mean in this case? (relating to that OP_DUP OP_SHA1 ...) 02:31 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:32 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@xdsl-31-164-85-6.adslplus.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:33 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-anwcbeexhrtnvfts] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:34 -!- notsure [b29f0577@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.159.5.119] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:34 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@xdsl-31-164-85-6.adslplus.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 02:34 < notsure> Hi, I would like to have a bit of a guideance please. If the optimal fee say 400 satoshi / byte, and I have 0,00213686 BTC in my wallet, how many bitcoin wold be my fee??? 02:34 < fluffypony> notsure: #bitcoin 02:34 < fluffypony> not here 02:34 < notsure> thx 02:34 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:35 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:37 < meshcollider> Sentineo: a value which hashes to itself under sha1 02:39 < meshcollider> Sentineo: hence the duplication, hash the duplicate, and check that hash is equal to the original 02:39 < Sentineo> ah ok, and there is infinitely many inputs that can make it so, right? meshcollider 02:39 < Sentineo> meshcollider: ah ok, now I get the script ... ty! 02:44 < meshcollider> Sentineo: 2^160 possible sha1 hashes, of those only maybe a few would hash to themselves. Certainly not infinite 02:46 < Sentineo> yeah, mixed it with colusion before you explained the script 02:52 -!- bitbuddy [~bitbuddy@209.107.193.138] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:52 -!- harrymm [~harrymm@104.207.83.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:54 -!- harrymm [~harrymm@104.207.83.34] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:55 < adlai> it does take infinitely-long input... 02:55 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@host-im1adb.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:56 < Sentineo> adlai: no, I tought so too, but you need an input that hashes to itself 2d times input = sha1(sha1(input)) if I got it right. 03:17 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:21 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:26 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:28 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:28 -!- bildramer [~bildramer@p200300ED83C4FC00AC9BCCA14258DFA9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:29 -!- bildramer [~bildramer@p200300ED83C4FC00AC9BCCA14258DFA9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:30 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-keypdutfnajoxfro] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:31 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:33 -!- s0ph1a [sid246387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vqpgxvcvxraeyhfa] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:33 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:33 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:33 < meshcollider> adlai: if a hash is 160bits, only way it can equal the input is if the input is also 160bit... 03:34 -!- s0ph1a [sid246387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wkknohmokpufubnv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:34 < meshcollider> adlai, Sentineo: you need x such that x = sha1(X) 03:35 < meshcollider> Sentineo: only one hash, you don't need two (although two is also true if one is, of course) 03:35 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:38 < Sentineo> meshcollider: yeah I did 2 to demontrate the 2^160 space 03:38 < Sentineo> would be true for 3, 4, 5, ... 03:38 < meshcollider> Yep 03:39 < Sentineo> why is that important though? What attack could be done finding such a hash? and why sha1? 03:40 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:41 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:42 -!- reallll [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:42 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:42 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:46 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:51 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:52 -!- arubi_ [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:52 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:52 -!- yoctopede [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:02 -!- yoctopede [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:02 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[~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:25 -!- son0p [~ff@d50-92-132-122.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:29 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:36 -!- Aaronvan_ [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:37 -!- kenshi84 [~kenshi84@2400:4027:2bd5:1200:c60:2ee2:757c:8f14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:39 -!- Intensity [ECOuT4H8Vm@panix5.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:48 -!- kenshi84 [~kenshi84@2400:4027:2bd5:1200:69ce:75e9:85b4:9450] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:03 -!- LeMiner2 is now known as LeMiner 07:03 -!- LeMiner [LeMiner@5ED1AFBF.cm-7-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Changing host] 07:03 -!- LeMiner [LeMiner@unaffiliated/leminer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:08 -!- Intensity [wEY9eB7LNB@panix5.panix.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:15 < contrapumpkin> maaku: nice :) and yeah andytoshi that was my fear 07:15 < contrapumpkin> I'm guessing the sha1 one has already been claimed at this point 07:15 < contrapumpkin> also that's a collision and not a fixed point, but same idea 07:16 < contrapumpkin> I guess the main difference with a fixed point is that there's no guarantee that one exists, but a nontrivial probability of it 07:16 < contrapumpkin> what I really need is a reward for a fixed point or proof that none exists :) 07:21 -!- Logicwax [~Logicwax@c-76-126-174-152.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:23 -!- yoctopede [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:24 -!- yoctopede [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:28 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:43 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:44 -!- d4de [~d4de@197.48.93.133] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:51 -!- yoctopede is now known as intcat 07:52 < nsh> i would imagine that a proof of the non-existence of a fixed point for a nontrivial hash function would be pretty long... 07:52 < nsh> like exhaustively long 08:09 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@host-im1adb.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:11 -!- str4d [~str4d@183.191.6.51.dyn.plus.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:12 < contrapumpkin> I imagine there's probably a more succinct proof than a full exhaustive enumeration, but I can't prove that either :P 08:16 -!- baikal [~baikal@107.161.0.78] has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.6.1+deb1 - http://znc.in] 08:20 < nsh> i don't know if there are even known bounds on the expected running time or space use of cycle-detection algorithms in cryptographic hash functions. a proof of a minimum cycle length seems pretty out of reach 08:22 < nsh> oh okay, it's 2^128 applications expectation to find a cycle using naive Floyd turtle & hare kinda shenanigans 08:22 < nsh> ( https://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/41372/floyds-cycle-finding-algorithm-on-sha256 ) 08:24 < nsh> but there is some relevance to puzzles with (kinda) actual cryptocurrency value: https://pdaian.com/blog/collision-finding-the-maxwell-way/ 08:24 -!- adminj [~admin@2a05:d014:5f:e100:fd30:8af7:2d6a:cbb1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:26 -!- jtimon [~quassel@164.31.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:26 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:28 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:32 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:32 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:36 -!- adminj [~admin@2a05:d014:5f:e100:fd30:8af7:2d6a:cbb1] has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.6.3+deb1 - http://znc.in] 08:37 -!- Guyver2 [AdiIRC@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:37 -!- Guyver2 [AdiIRC@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:37 -!- Guyver2 [AdiIRC@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:38 -!- provoostenator [~vwDZ2BYsc@2a05:d014:5f:e100:fd30:8af7:2d6a:cbb1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:39 < waxwing> is my logic correct that there must be a cycle, *if* the 32byte input - 32 byte output mapping is not a proper permutation? 08:41 -!- jtimon [~quassel@164.31.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:42 < andytoshi> like, a 2-element cycle? there will be cycles of some length no matter what 08:43 < andytoshi> just by counting -- if you keep applying the function, you have to eventually see a previous value because there are only decreasingly many unseen values 08:44 < waxwing> "always be cycles of some length" - yeah that is what i was thinking, i know it's simple but was just sanity checking 08:44 < waxwing> never thought about this stuff, it's cool though 08:45 < waxwing> oic yeah even simpler, no matter if permutation 08:48 < andytoshi> there is some variant of the "100 prisoners, each day one is randomly chosen to go into a room with a lightswitch, how can they be sure that everyone has been in the room after the minimum number of days" puzzle which has a clever solution involving cycle-finding 08:48 < andytoshi> but i can't find it.. 08:48 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hrymjcydzgsifjyr] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 08:48 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:50 -!- d4de [~d4de@197.48.93.133] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:53 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@ip68-100-207-91.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:56 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@host-im1adb.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:56 -!- d4de [~d4de@197.48.93.133] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:02 -!- bsm117532 [~mcelrath@c-73-119-55-73.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has 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#bitcoin-wizards 10:31 -!- d4de [~d4de@197.48.93.133] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:40 -!- jephalien [~jephalien@CPE00fc8d947f53-CM00fc8d947f50.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:45 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:47 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:49 -!- jephalien [~jephalien@CPE00fc8d947f53-CM00fc8d947f50.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:57 -!- d4de [~d4de@197.48.93.133] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:01 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:03 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:08 -!- Guest98664 [~derek@U0lHSU5U.shellhack.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:12 < tromp> andytoshi, aren't you confused with the 100 prisoners, each opening 50 out of 100 boxes, puzzle? 11:12 -!- eck [~eck@fsf/member/eck] has quit [Quit: we out here] 11:12 < andytoshi> tromp: oo, yes, that sounds familiar 11:13 < andytoshi> yes, thank you! all i remembered was "100 prisoners" and "solution involving cycles", which is not enough to google for :) 11:13 < tromp> the boxes contain all their (unique) names, and the goal is for every prisoner to find their own name among the 50 they open 11:13 -!- eck [~eck@fsf/member/eck] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:13 < andytoshi> yup 11:13 < tromp> find a strategy with non-negiglible success prob 11:14 < tromp> naive strategy is only 2^-100 chance 11:14 -!- d4de [~d4de@197.48.93.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:14 < tromp> best one is around 30% 11:15 < tromp> one of best puzzles ever 11:17 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bodfehyreoshvcgt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:19 -!- str4d [~str4d@183.191.6.51.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:20 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:22 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:22 -!- [Derek] [~derek@U0lHSU5U.shellhack.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:22 -!- [Derek] is now known as Guest91367 11:26 -!- Guest91367 [~derek@U0lHSU5U.shellhack.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:30 < waxwing> tromp, ah thanks, fun, something to ponder over dinner :) 11:32 < waxwing> https://puzzling.stackexchange.com/questions/16/100-prisoners-names-in-boxes 11:33 -!- daszorz [~daszorz@cpc106809-live29-2-0-cust896.17-2.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:38 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:39 < andytoshi> here's a fun variant i haven't seen stated? suppose that each prisoner goes in in series, immediately lives or dies, and the other prisoners learn this before continuing. can they reduce the maximum number of deaths to 1? i think so but i'm not sure 11:41 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:45 < da2ce7_> hello andytoshi and tromp, I love these brain toys. :) 11:49 -!- haaning [~haaning@87.72.201.141] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:50 < haaning> Hey guys. 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#bitcoin-wizards 16:54 -!- dabura667 [~dabura667@p98110-ipngnfx01marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:55 -!- jb55 [~jb55@108.172.210.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:00 -!- rilos [~rilos@unaffiliated/rilos] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:01 -!- rilos [~rilos@unaffiliated/rilos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:06 -!- deusexbeer [~deusexbee@093-092-179-218-dynamic-pool-adsl.wbt.ru] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 17:07 < maaku> Sentineo: people seem to have gotten distracted. to your question, there are some protocols that could possibly break if a small cycle or fixed point were found 17:08 < maaku> alternatively it would make the hash function potentially useful as a compact assymetric cryptography primitive 17:09 < maaku> but the real value is in just understanding if there can be cycles. one of the assumptions of a cryptographic hash function is that its output is indistinguishable from randomness.. having small cycles kinda breaks 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