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10:30 < a87ry5> would mempool set reconciliation be way to covertly broadcast transactions? (aka post a transaction to your mempool but do not broadcast, wait for someone to reconcile then send it to them to broadcast)
10:31 < a87ry5> assuming of course the reconciler is not the one trying to denon your transaction
10:31 < a87ry5> deanonymize*
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12:44 < srpx> Hello. What is the best reference to implement bitcoin signatures (ecdsa with secp256k1, right)?
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13:07 < andytoshi> https://www1.lip6.fr/~joux/pages/papers/ToolBox.pdf
13:08 < maaku> a87ry5: other than UI aspects, that's not a bad idea
13:08 < andytoshi> srpx: if you're doing this for educational purposes, you might check out the libsecp256k1 library and its comments. yes, it is ECDSA over secp256k1. If you are doing something in practice you should probably just directly use the library or one of its bindings
13:11 < fluffypony> maaku: I don't believe it would practically make a difference
13:11 < fluffypony> you're still first-broadcast IP on reconcile
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13:15 < srpx> andytoshi: problem is that I'd like to have the code on the host language; it compiles to many targets and finding a binding for each target would be a nightmare. Also would make it impossible to publish it as a lib, users would need to install the bindings, etc.
13:16 < srpx> andytoshi: just directly translating a well-written codebase should be ok, no?
13:16 < srpx> manually*
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13:22 < andytoshi> no
13:22 < andytoshi> the result would not be sidechannel resistant nor would it carry over any API contracts that are implicit in the type system of the target language
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13:52 < andytoshi> related to my lattice link above: http://defeo.lu/sage-lattices-EJCIM/
13:54 < srpx> How libsecp256k1 achieves side-channel resistance?
13:55 < srpx> I'm 99% sure the ECDSA lib on npm isn't side-channel resistant, it is used by most major implementations afaik, isn't that a problem?
13:56 < andytoshi> yes it is
13:56 < andytoshi> please don't worsen it by contributing to the set of cryptographic code written by non-cryptographers with no review
13:57 < srpx> https://github.com/indutny/elliptic ? Proof?
13:57  * srpx sighs
13:58 < srpx> that's why I don't like ECDSA "here is this magic piece of software built by 'experts', trust it, no you can't implement it yourself and stfu"
13:58 < srpx> how is that acceptable? fuck that attitude, honestly
13:58 < andytoshi> *shrug* crypto is hard
13:58 < srpx> we have signature algorithms that can be actually understood and implemented by common people
13:58 < srpx> andytoshi: /\
13:59 < srpx> the only hard bit of cryptography on bitcoin is ecdsa, and it isn't required at all
13:59 < andytoshi> this is not the channel for anti-enlightenment social commentary, "let's take the plane back from these smug pilots", etc etc. if you have specific questions you're welcome to ask and if you want pointers to what things to look at you'll find them
13:59 < srpx> just a rant though, but if I can't implement the algorithm myself, then fuck I don't trust it
13:59 < srpx> okay
14:00 < andytoshi> you're welcome to take that attitude, you won't have a very livable life if you take it seriously though
14:00 < waxwing> there's a difference between 'i can implement the algo myself' and 'i can implement it in a way that's both performant and safe for large scale use' right.
14:01 < srpx> won't be replying to respect the channel, but I'd like to talk about the subject, "trust the experts who wrote this implementation" goes absolutely against the spirit of btc imo, given that we have options
14:01 < srpx> sorry for the tone, though
14:03 < srpx> @waxwing I think andytoshi's point is that non-experts in crypto (whatever defines that) can hardly implement ecdsa safely (and I agree, by the way - too many small things to mess up)
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14:07 < waxwing> sure, i believe it (indeed my comment encapsulates that). not sure how big of a disagreement there is here, then?
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14:13 < srpx> no disagreement at all I guess
14:14 < srpx> ((still sucks)
14:15 < sipa> i won't claim that only experts can write high performant secure code
14:15 < sipa> but it is a remarkably large amount of work
14:16 < waxwing> it sucks that bitcoin transactions aren't free too. /me runs away
14:16 < sipa> so it isn't so much a argument from authority "smart people say it's good, so it's good"
14:16 < sipa> it's more a "many eyes have reviewed this codez you should probably prefer it over alternatives"
14:17 < waxwing> i should show my code to my pet bees. very secure :)
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14:34 < srpx> That's better than "trust an expert", but still, heartbleed. I'd rather go with a "see, we're using this much simpler algorithm which you can understand, implement and verify yourself".
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14:44 < andytoshi> i am curious what signature algorithm you have in mind which is simpler than ECDSA and can be implemented in a sidechannel-free way without being extremely careful
14:44 < andytoshi> also note that libsecp does not allocate anywhere, which alleviates your concern about libraries that use allocators that you can't understand
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14:44 < andytoshi> (in fact this is the only such strategy because any performant allocator will necessarily use crazy algorithms that require significant study in order to grok)
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15:40 < maaku> someone should have pointed out that "have the code in the host language" is a dangerous requirement because very few toolchains can be trusted to actually generate side channel resistant code after optimization and compiler magic
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16:35 < srpx> andytoshi: it takes caution to implement an adder that is sidechannel-free, though...
16:36 < srpx> andytoshi: but lamport signatures are absolutely trivial to implement and understand why they obviously work; at least much more so than ECDSA, which has that somewhat heavy elliptic curves machinery, and depends on unproven conjectures
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16:47 < sipa> srpx: lamport signatures are indeed very simple to implement and understanf
16:48 < sipa> they however also rely on an unproven assumption (properties of the underlying hash functions)
16:48 < sipa> and they're also enormous.
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16:58 < andytoshi> srpx: there was recently a stir in the news about a cryptocurrency project implementing lamport (well, winternitz) signatures without knowing what they were doing, using them in a context where it was literally impossible to enforce single-use keys, and producing a completely owned system
16:59 < srpx> sipa: that's true, fair enough
16:59 < srpx> andytoshi: what was that?
16:59 < andytoshi> https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/7gwl38/hello_guys_i_have_lost_30k_in_iota_and_i_would/
17:01 < andytoshi> i would be thrilled if you had an example of idiot-proof crypto but unfortunately i really do think it's impossible. lamport signatures kinda "cheat" my intuitive reasons why this would be so, because they deliberately reveal large amounts of key material, turning a weakness into a strength. but then this makes them one-time signatures which is a weird type of cryptosystem that most people have
17:01 < andytoshi> little intuition for
17:02 < eck> ouch
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17:10 < srpx> andytoshi: there is a huge gap between "idiot-proof" and "yes you're a senior dev that's 2 decades on the industry but you still can't implement this, just blindly trust 'the experts', thanks"
17:11 < andytoshi> srpx: nobody except you has talked about blindly trusting experts
17:11 < srpx> it is the difference between: "don't trust us? ask the engineer on your company to audit the code himself" and "no just trust us, thanks"
17:12 < andytoshi> please go review libsecp if you want to, the code is the first google hit for "libsecp256k1" and the second result for "secp256k1"
17:12 < srpx> and one-time sigs work well for the purposes of crypto-currencies, so...
17:13 < andytoshi> they absolutely don't
17:14 < srpx> andytoshi: by the way, yes IOTA is poor in so many different levels that it their best accomplishment so far seems to be making a case against the things they decided to use
17:14 < andytoshi> the key holder can't control how often their keys are used, they can't guarantee single signatures without being extremely careful about state, they may want/need to revise transactions even if the previous problems don't apply, and finally nothing is ever final in a cryptocurrency except probablistically
17:15 < srpx> wait, why can't they guarantee single signatures? sign once, publish a transaction with the new key, wait enough confirms, done? am I missing something here?
17:15 < srpx> are you arguing for the case when you need to replace a tx or something?
17:16 < andytoshi> i listed four orthogonal reasons that re-signing may happen
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17:23 < srpx> okay
17:23 < srpx> andytoshi: by the way, what makes one a crypto expert (your criteria)
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22:23 < maaku> srpx: <maaku> someone should have pointed out that "have the code in the host language" is a dangerous requirement because very few toolchains can be trusted to actually generate side channel resistant code after optimization and compiler magic
22:25 < maaku> this isn't about "you're not an expert!" or "never roll your own crypto" or any other rediculous reasoning. rather, writing secure crypto software is *hard*. you can't prove security. and most infrastructure out there is not compatible with making crypto libraries secure
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22:29 < maaku> well fwiw the fee revision can be fixed if the signature can commit to extra data, which would be next key to be used for bip-125 like safe replacement
22:30 < maaku> that has a set of other tradeoffs and one-time signatures are bad or other reasons mentioned, but worth mentioning that
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22:34 < srpx> maaku: yep I agree with that, one of the reasons I'd rather have simpler sig schemes, but I agree lamport have its issues
22:45 < maaku> in general terms that is a reasonable argument to make. e.g. Schnorr variants is a better choice than ECDSA
22:45 < maaku> but we shouldn't shy away from certain categories of crypto because they seem difficult
22:46 < maaku> (also, I question that assumption. Lamport signatures only look easier than EC if you treat the hash function as a black box. SHA2 or SHA3 is waaay more complicated than scalar multiply + signature operations)
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23:45 < adlai> andytoshi: please don't contribute to "abstinance-only linkography". if the man wants to hotwire his own ABS drivers, let him risk his own neck... at worst, ask him politely to warn passengers
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--- Log closed Mon Dec 25 00:00:53 2017