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07:23 < contrapumpkin> are there any analogs to the bitcoin fee market in "real life"? it feels fundamentally a bit stunted
07:25 < contrapumpkin> it feels like it's always going to devolve into something resembling an arms race, given the signals available to participants
07:32 < kanzure> look at the auction theory reviews of bitcoin fee market
07:32 < bsm117532> Well there are fees all over the place...ATM fees, wire transfer fees, exchange fees, and a "market" exists because customers can move between providers based on fee.  I know the fact that my checking account reimburses ATM fees is one of the reasons I chose them.  But I think this is not the answer you're looking for.
07:32 < kanzure> and use fee bumping
07:33 < contrapumpkin> yeah, I mean the bitcoin one specifically. I can't choose my miner and I don't really know what they'll take, and we're all trying in some sense to outbid one another
07:33 < contrapumpkin> https://medium.com/@avivzohar/rethinking-bitcoins-fee-market-ea9319e4ea57 ?
07:33 < contrapumpkin> that sort of thign?
07:36 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/Redesigning%20bitcoin's%20fee%20market%20-%202017.pdf
07:36 < sipa> contrapumpkin: you actually can select a miner and negotiate a price... but i think that's inadvisable
07:37 < kanzure> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-September/015093.html
07:37 < kanzure> https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/72qi2r/redesigning_bitcoins_fee_market_a_new_paper_by/
07:37 < contrapumpkin> sipa: fair enough, it's not a trustable process though
07:37 < sipa> as it requires that miners are reachable and recognizable, so it inherently favors a world with not too many independent parties
07:38 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/stanford-2017/redesigning-bitcoin-fee-market/
07:38 < contrapumpkin> thanks kanzure :)
07:38 < kanzure> do yer reading
07:38 < contrapumpkin> you're like the ultimate librarian
07:38 < kanzure> i hate librarians. they sold out to OCLC.
07:39 < contrapumpkin> platonic ideal of librarian?
07:39 < sipa> OCLC?
07:39 < kanzure> OCLC are the people who own the dewey decimal system etc
07:39 < kanzure> and also the people who manage all the libraries
07:40 < kanzure> http://web.archive.org/web/20120202111321/http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/oclcscam
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07:52 < bsm117532> FWIW one thing I've been thinking about on this topic is the no-block-reward scenario, which is unstable due to fee-sniping: http://randomwalker.info/publications/mining_CCS.pdf
07:53 < bsm117532> I wonder if an algorithm could be devised where e.g. miners take *half* the available fee at any given time, to remove any incentive for the next miner to orphan your block in order to steal fees.
07:54 < sipa> bsm117532: yes, pay forward schemes have been diacussed several times
07:54 < bsm117532> How is that "pay forward"?
07:54 < bsm117532> Also, any refs would be appreciated ;-)
07:55 < sipa> every miner is required to pay X% of the mining income forward to the next block
07:55 < sipa> which is even doable as a SF
07:55 < bsm117532> Oh I see
07:55 < sipa> this imoroves the situation by not only incentivizing miners to include your tx, but also for further miners to mine on top of it
07:56 < sipa> however i believe it can never fully fix the incentives in the oresence of highly variable fees on the network
07:56 < bsm117532> This doesn't even require a soft fork...can be done as local miner node policy WRT the mempool they see.
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07:56 < sipa> well, yes, but why would a miner agree to give up half their income if it's not required
07:56 < bsm117532> So another miner doesn't snipe their fee if they take it all. ;-)
07:57 < bsm117532> They're not increasing their income if their blocks are always orphaned.
07:57 < sipa> right
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08:52 < kanzure> bsm117532: for that see https://medium.com/@bergealex4/bitcoin-is-unstable-without-the-block-size-size-limit-70db07070a54
08:53 < bsm117532> Yes, that was what I was referring to
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10:15 < andytoshi> fluffypony: do you have timelocks of any form? multisig has always been possible in monero, timelocks are the missing piece afaict
10:16 < andytoshi> waxwing: contrapumpkin: yes, you can do cross-chain swaps across chains that use different curves. it's a bit more involved, you need a piece of crypto that i haven't published yet
10:16 < andytoshi> and yes, ed25519 is schnorr enough for this
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10:23 < dEBRUYNE> Monero has unlock_time, which will lock an output for a specified number of blocks.
10:23 < dEBRUYNE> ^ andytoshi
10:23 < fluffypony> andytoshi: yes we do, but there's no per-output granularity
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10:24 < andytoshi> dEBRUYNE: that's insufficient.
10:24 < andytoshi> fluffypony: right, sorry, what i meant is that you can chain zero-confs and create locktimed transactions before the referenced outputs exist
10:25 < fluffypony> can't chain 0-confs in Monero tho
10:25 < fluffypony> unless you do it out-of-band
10:25 < andytoshi> right, so you can't do atomic swaps or lightning or anything without holdup risk
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17:11 < kanzure> https://media.ccc.de/v/34c3-9105-coming_soon_machine-checked_mathematical_proofs_in_everyday_software_and_hardware_development
17:17 < contrapumpkin> waxwing, andytoshi: since the discussion on the topic has split between the two channels, someone on the monero side put this together (plus some discussion in #monero-research-lab): https://github.com/GuggerJoel/XMR-BTC-atomic
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