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AFAICT you'd need the entire block, so you could derive the UTXO commitment and show it was incorrect. Or am I missing a trick? 02:31 < yoleaux> 24 Nov 2017 16:47Z rusty: cute, but I far prefer units which describe or imply what they are, even metaphorically. I'm going to keep calling it weight. 02:33 < rusty> maaku: Like the Newton, the Watt and the Joule? I don't think this is a convincing argument :) 02:34 < rusty> In fact, I think the same problem applies to the merkle root. You can't prove it's garbage without providing every txid, AFAICT. Though that's not quite as heavy as every tx. 02:36 < maaku> rusty: I'm actually not a fan of SI units ;) 02:37 < rusty> (Actually, never mind, that's a subset of the data withholding problem I think). 02:47 -!- tiagotrs [~tiago@unaffiliated/tiagotrs] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:49 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@host-im1adb.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:51 -!- tiagotrs [~tiago@pD9FD6264.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:51 -!- tiagotrs [~tiago@pD9FD6264.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Changing host] 02:51 -!- tiagotrs [~tiago@unaffiliated/tiagotrs] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:53 -!- HSF_Prince_Loaf [sid67551@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zraqpvwaxivfctlc] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:54 -!- HSF_Prince_Loaf [sid67551@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-asjgvhhxxmfkrjfs] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:54 -!- wizkid057 [~wk@unaffiliated/wizkid057] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:54 -!- tiagotrs_ [~tiago@pD9FD6264.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:07 -!- bildramer [~bildramer@p200300ED83C4FC00AC9BCCA14258DFA9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:10 -!- wizkid057 [~wk@unaffiliated/wizkid057] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:13 -!- bildramer [~bildramer@p200300ED83C4FC00AC9BCCA14258DFA9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:19 -!- doodle69 [~doodle@gen-103-42-238-201.ptr4.otw.net.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:26 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:26 -!- doodle69 [~doodle@gen-103-42-238-201.ptr4.otw.net.au] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 03:27 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:27 -!- doodle69 [~doodle@103.42.238.201] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:48 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:21 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:23 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:24 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rfyonsiadowbbngh] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 04:29 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:30 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:34 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:35 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:36 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:47 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:49 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:50 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:05 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:06 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:20 -!- doodle69 [~doodle@103.42.238.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:22 -!- gtklocker [~gtklocker@li1388-195.members.linode.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:33 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 05:33 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:33 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 05:35 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:36 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:39 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:40 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:47 < kanzure> .to rusty can't prove a merkle root (or blockheader) is garbage without every transaction, due to the validity requirement. 05:47 < yoleaux> kanzure: I'll pass your message to rusty. 05:50 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:57 < contrapumpkin> kanzure: you're at ledgerx! 05:57 < kanzure> need something? 05:57 < contrapumpkin> nah, just recognized your name when I was looking at it yesterday :) it seems cool 05:57 -!- thrmo [~thrmo@unaffiliated/thrmo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:03 -!- tiagotrs_ [~tiago@pD9FD6264.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:05 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 06:06 -!- lukedashjr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:09 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:10 -!- lukedashjr is now known as luke-jr 06:13 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:14 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:17 -!- tiagotrs [~tiago@unaffiliated/tiagotrs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:22 -!- Guyver2 [AdiIRC@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:23 -!- echonaut [~echonaut@46.101.192.134] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:23 -!- echonaut [~echonaut@46.101.192.134] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:37 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:39 -!- bsm117532 [~mcelrath@c-73-119-55-73.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:02 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-204-28-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:04 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:05 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:06 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:06 -!- SopaXorzTaker [~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:06 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:22 -!- StopAndDecrypt_ [~StopAndDe@c-73-248-248-9.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:22 -!- StopAndDecrypt [~StopAndDe@c-73-248-248-9.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:22 -!- StopAndDecrypt [~StopAndDe@c-73-248-248-9.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 07:22 -!- StopAndDecrypt [~StopAndDe@unaffiliated/stopanddecrypt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:23 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:32 -!- bsm117532 [~mcelrath@c-73-119-55-73.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:35 -!- glassmus [~kjellberg@2001:bc8:4400:2800::4b29] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:35 -!- ninjahamstah [~ninjahams@2001:bc8:4400:2800::4b29] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:36 -!- glassmus is now known as kjellberg 07:36 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@host-im1adb.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:44 -!- adiabat [~adiabat@45.63.20.152] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.4] 07:45 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:46 -!- adiabat [~adiabat@45.63.20.152] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:46 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:49 < sn0wmonster> how feasible is it for bitcoin to ever be as inherently untraceable as Monero is? 07:50 < sn0wmonster> could it even be done at all given the way the existing blockchain is already public? 07:54 < nsh> completely feasible if you abandon conservative principles. CT could be implemented with bulletproofs today using a hard fork, or even a soft fork with more caveats 07:55 < nsh> but it's unlikely to happen on the mainchain due to governance externalities 07:55 < nsh> in the near term anyway 08:01 < waxwing> sn0wmonster, how feasible is it for bitcoin to ever be as inherently unscalable as Monero is? :) 08:03 -!- bsm117532 [~mcelrath@2601:182:cd00:2dd1:94dc:cafa:379b:6701] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:06 < sn0wmonster> waxwing, for a demonstration, see bcash 08:18 -!- wraithm [~wraithm@unaffiliated/wraithm] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:21 -!- jl2012 [uid133844@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-toqjsscgxojbiwpl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:21 -!- wraithm [~wraithm@unaffiliated/wraithm] has quit [Client Quit] 08:26 -!- son0p [~ff@d50-92-132-122.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:29 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:30 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined 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[Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...] 14:32 -!- Kryz [~Kryz@2603:301b:2605:4a00:a0fc:1c37:83ec:a64c] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:32 -!- djhoulihan [~djhouliha@static-71-167-121-80.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:33 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:35 -!- deusexbeer [~deusexbee@080-250-076-106-dynamic-pool-adsl.wbt.ru] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:39 -!- djhoulihan [~djhouliha@static-71-167-121-80.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:39 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-eyjzmlpofitcrbls] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:40 -!- spinza [~spin@196.212.164.26] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:40 < rusty> kanzure: thanks, indeed. That kind of blows the idea of compact fraud proofs up, AFAICT. You need a UTXO commitment to compactly prove "that output never existed" but you can't compactly prove the UTXO commitment itself is invalid. handwave: maybe could shard the UTXO commitment somehow into N, then it's 1/N the data to prove any one of N is invalid, but then using UTXO commitmetns to prove stuff is N times larger. 14:40 < yoleaux> 13:47Z rusty: can't prove a merkle root (or blockheader) is garbage without every transaction, due to the validity requirement. 14:45 < kanzure> rusty: here are some things, 14:45 < kanzure> http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2017-08-10.log 14:45 < kanzure> http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2017-08-04.log 14:53 -!- daszorz [~daszorz@cpc106809-live29-2-0-cust896.17-2.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:54 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:59 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:00 -!- djhoulihan [~djhouliha@static-71-167-121-80.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:01 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:02 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:12 -!- djhoulihan [~djhouliha@static-71-167-121-80.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:32 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:47 < maaku> sn0wmonster: (1) Monero isn't as untraceable as you think it is; (2) CT is a red herring as it hides the amounts only not the tx graph; (3) bitcoin can achieve essentially the same property with coinjoin/coinswap 15:48 < contrapumpkin> maaku: have more references on that? I thought the point was to hide the graph using the cryptonote style 15:48 < maaku> references on which part? 15:49 < maaku> rusty: that's a stronger claim than I'm aware of people making about fraud proofs. the hope with fraud proofs, reaching all the way back to satoshi's "alerts", is that a full node can provide compact evidence of invalidity 15:49 < contrapumpkin> I guess part 1. Part 2 is supposed to be used in conjunction with some sort of selectable anonymity set for the inputs isn't it, which was part of cryptonote? 15:49 < maaku> not that you can discover invalidity from a compact data 15:51 < contrapumpkin> not sure I follow? or were you talking to rusty 15:51 < waxwing> i don't think CT is a red herring. 15:51 -!- itsme [~textual@x4d04c5c8.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:52 < contrapumpkin> like you have the ring sigs to mask your inputs to a degree of your choice 15:52 < contrapumpkin> and then CT covers the transaction amounts to minimize correlations 15:52 < waxwing> ring sigs don't *hide* the graph but they do seriously obfuscate it, maaku is presumably saying that CT + CJ (which is a lot easier) gives somewhat similar effects 15:52 < contrapumpkin> fair enough 15:53 < contrapumpkin> so I guess you end up with a "probabilistic graph" 15:53 < contrapumpkin> where if the input set was 4, there's a 1/4 chance of each input being an edge 15:53 -!- jb55 [~jb55@70-36-49-138.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:53 < contrapumpkin> or something like that? 15:53 < maaku> Monero only provides a small amount of obfuscation due to the linear cost of a ring signature. For each input you select a couple of random other inputs that it could have been. 15:53 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:54 < contrapumpkin> it seems like tracing through a graph made of such probabilistic edges would lead to very small probabilities very quickly though 15:54 < waxwing> i think it's more than a couple, for sure, not sure exact numbers as of now tho' 15:54 < contrapumpkin> if you took more than a couple of hops 15:54 < dEBRUYNE> waxwing: ring size is 5 by default 15:54 < waxwing> contrapumpkin, yeah true but it's nastily hard analysis, because all kinds of metadata and heuristics can come into play 15:54 < dEBRUYNE> And it's enforced on the protocol level 15:54 < waxwing> dEBRUYNE, thanks yeah that was my memory but i wasn't sure 15:54 < contrapumpkin> dEBRUYNE: always exactly 5? I guess that makes sense 15:54 < maaku> However the traceability of transactions due to other block chain visible information (tx time, frequency of linkage, etc.) provides more bits of identifying information than a couple of extra ring signatures provides 15:54 < contrapumpkin> to minimize profiling of sizes? 15:55 < dEBRUYNE> It's not an enforced constant. People can choose something higher than 5 if they want to 15:55 < contrapumpkin> ah okay 15:55 < dEBRUYNE> There's talk about enforcing it as a constant though to make it uniform 15:55 < maaku> This is without even looking into crypto weaknesses such as set intersections of the rings to provably show spentness and such 15:55 < contrapumpkin> but if I choose 1828 inputs, it probably stands out :) 15:55 < dEBRUYNE> Right 15:56 < contrapumpkin> maaku: can you expand on how tx time might help you correlate things? 15:56 < dEBRUYNE> Well, depends, if you use it once, it won't stand out 15:56 < dEBRUYNE> If you use it all the time, it will 15:56 < waxwing> maaku, still don't see where the "red herring" part comes from. 15:56 < contrapumpkin> like of the privacy coins out there, it seems like the least bullshitty 15:56 < contrapumpkin> I guess that isn't saying much 15:56 < contrapumpkin> my sense was that it was actually pretty decent though 15:56 -!- vicenteH [~user@35.233.15.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:57 < maaku> contrapumpkin: you generally make your transactions 9-5 in your timezone. you select, randomly, inputs from someone in east asia that makes transactions normally when you are asleep 15:57 < contrapumpkin> ok 15:57 < maaku> you can use machine learning to cluster groups of potential spends based on features like that, and assign likelihoods of which input being the "real" one 15:58 < maaku> it doesn't take many features to reduce a 2- 3- or 4-way spend 15:58 < contrapumpkin> why would I consistently pick the ones in asia though? and can't I just make sure there's a fairly uniform distribution of input txn attributes? 15:59 < maaku> That plus the veil is going to be pierced on the entire block chain history when there are quantum computers. 15:59 -!- Guyver2 [AdiIRC@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 15:59 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:00 < maaku> contrapumpkin: you don't want a uniform distribution. you want to hide in the anonymity set of people who transact similarly to you. 16:00 < maaku> assuming you can't set N=infinity, which you can't 16:01 < contrapumpkin> I'm just struggling to see much that can be correlated beyond txn times, so I'm not sure what you'd do with that knowledge 16:03 < maaku> That was one example. Also, how many inputs and outputs, the tx graph distance of the various inputs (you can't hide the fact you're spending two of your own inputs!), any wallet software identifying tx features 16:04 < contrapumpkin> yeah, I guess I can see there are "features" 16:04 < contrapumpkin> I just don't see a "ground truth" to learn out of it 16:04 < contrapumpkin> with a team going out of its way to homogenize as much as they possibly can, it seems like wallet variations will be minimal and probably removed over time 16:04 < contrapumpkin> time is fundamentally hard to homogenize unless you want high latency 16:05 < maaku> I have enough of a machine learning background to appreciate this as a "data-rich" environment. I personally consider CryptoNote-derived protocols fundamentally broken. 16:05 < contrapumpkin> but I could see someday the network getting together and saying highly secure transactions only get broadcast twice a day at UTC 6 and 18 16:05 < contrapumpkin> or something 16:07 < maaku> CoinJoin/ValueShuffle is harder to work with, but as a result of it being interactive you get more uniformity in your anonymity set. 16:08 < contrapumpkin> oh, I'm also quite eager to see more coinjoin, don't get me wrong 16:08 < contrapumpkin> I just don't think monero is as fundamentally broken as you make it out to be :) 16:13 -!- StopAndDecrypt_ [~StopAndDe@c-73-248-248-9.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:13 -!- StopAndDecrypt [~StopAndDe@unaffiliated/stopanddecrypt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:38 -!- djhoulihan [~djhouliha@static-71-167-121-80.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:40 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:45 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:48 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:54 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:56 -!- adiabat [~adiabat@45.63.20.152] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:58 -!- adiabat [~adiabat@45.63.20.152] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:00 -!- daszorz [~daszorz@cpc106809-live29-2-0-cust896.17-2.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:03 -!- djhoulihan [~djhouliha@static-71-167-121-80.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:14 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:18 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:24 -!- jb55 [~jb55@70-36-49-138.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:24 < waxwing> i don't follow maaku why you think that CJ + CT would be harder to do data analysis on than ring sig + CJ? 17:25 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:26 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:26 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:28 < waxwing> i mean the negative of interactivity for CJ (in models where it is indeed interactive) are obviously a very big deal, and if it uses more space on chain that's another negative, but that tradeoff (space) will depend on all kinds of details. 17:28 < waxwing> but the interactivity one is really the biggie of course 17:30 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:36 < waxwing> why would it being interactive lead to "more uniformity in anonymity set"? 17:39 -!- Kryz [~Kryz@2603:301b:2605:4a00:a0fc:1c37:83ec:a64c] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:53 -!- Murch [~murch@96-82-80-28-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Snoozing.] 17:55 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:57 -!- coinsmurf [coinsmurf@96.66.250.198] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:00 < rusty> maaku: exactly, how does a full node provide a compact proof that the UTXO commitment is invalid? 18:00 < rusty> If it is, in fact, random junk. AFAICT you pretty much need the entire block. 18:05 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:07 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:14 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:14 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:19 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:25 < maaku> rusty: it's not a tx-validity rule? 18:26 < rusty> maaku: Don't understand. I'm assuming a simple model, where coinbase commits to tree of all outstanding UTXOs after this block is processed. AFAICT you can't produce a compact proof that this is wrong. 18:29 -!- packetsmurf [coinsmurf@96-66-250-198-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:30 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:31 -!- coinsmurf [coinsmurf@96.66.250.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:43 -!- jb55 [~jb55@70-36-49-138.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:05 < stoffu> maaku: >>you generally make your transactions 9-5 in your timezone. you select, randomly, inputs from someone in east asia that makes transactions normally when you are asleep<<= Decoys in ring signatures are automatically chosen from the entirety of ever growing TXO set, with probability following a triangular distribution favoring recent outputs. 19:07 < stoffu> Users aren't allowed to manually pick decoys because humans are bad at picking random values. 19:08 < stoffu> And the decoy selection algorithm has nothing to do with your timezone or the time of tx creation. 19:12 -!- esotericnonsense [~esotericn@unaffiliated/esotericnonsense] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:45 -!- airbreather [~airbreath@d149-67-99-43.nap.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:48 -!- airbreather [~airbreath@d149-67-99-43.nap.wideopenwest.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:02 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:07 -!- jb55 [~jb55@70-36-49-138.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:12 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-204-28-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:20 -!- itsme [~textual@x4d04c5c8.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 20:57 -!- packetsmurf [coinsmurf@96-66-250-198-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:00 -!- legogris [~legogris@128.199.205.238] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:00 -!- legogris [~legogris@128.199.205.238] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:09 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:20 -!- mechmonkey [d212d196@gateway/web/freenode/ip.210.18.209.150] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:29 -!- bsm117532 [~mcelrath@2601:182:cd00:2dd1:94dc:cafa:379b:6701] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:30 -!- bsm117532 [~mcelrath@c-73-119-55-73.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:35 -!- instagibbs [~instagibb@pool-100-15-116-35.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:37 -!- instagibbs [~instagibb@pool-100-15-116-35.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:49 -!- jouke [~jouke@unaffiliated/komkommer] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:51 -!- jouke [~jouke@a80-100-203-151.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:42 -!- SopaXorzTaker [~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:42 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:44 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:50 -!- Murch [~murch@c-73-241-180-136.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:59 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@c-73-181-185-197.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:05 -!- Murch [~murch@c-73-241-180-136.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Snoozing.] 23:33 -!- mechmonkey [d212d196@gateway/web/freenode/ip.210.18.209.150] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:57 -!- rabidus [~rabidus@91-145-115-22.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:58 -!- rabidus [~rabidus@91-145-115-22.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards --- Log closed Fri Jan 05 00:00:03 2018