--- Log opened Mon Jan 22 00:00:30 2018 00:01 -!- modin [~modin@155.4.6.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:08 -!- jtimon [~quassel@41.31.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:12 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:33 -!- modin [~modin@h-6-164.A444.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:45 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:50 < maaku> hold my beer while I go code up a quantum Turing machine script 00:55 -!- d9b4bef9 [~d9b4bef9@web501.webfaction.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:56 -!- d9b4bef9 [~d9b4bef9@web501.webfaction.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:00 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 01:04 -!- jtimon [~quassel@41.31.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:05 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:14 -!- dabura667 [~dabura667@240f:d:e193:1:81ec:aa09:8b76:4491] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:14 -!- daszorz [~daszorz@188.94.18.118] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:17 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:21 -!- CubicEar_ [~cubiceart@c-73-181-185-197.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:21 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@c-73-181-185-197.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:23 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@c-73-181-185-197.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:40 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:41 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:50 -!- meeh [~mikalv@login.sigterm.no] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:50 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xkyivfkhstihrdxx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:56 -!- thrmo [~thrmo@unaffiliated/thrmo] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:17 -!- SopaXorzTaker [~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:19 -!- deusexbeer [~deusexbee@079-170-138-254-dynamic-pool-adsl.wbt.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:19 -!- SopaXorzTaker [~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:21 -!- SopaXorzTaker [~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:38 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-204-28-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:00 -!- son0p [~ff@adsl201-232-238-252.epm.net.co] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:02 -!- marcoagner [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/marcoagner] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:16 -!- thrmo [~thrmo@unaffiliated/thrmo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:17 -!- bildramer [~bildramer@p200300ED83C4FC0015638E79144F66EF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:18 -!- son0p [~ff@adsl201-232-238-252.epm.net.co] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 03:18 -!- son0p [~ff@adsl201-232-238-252.epm.net.co] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:19 -!- son0p [~ff@adsl201-232-238-252.epm.net.co] has quit [Client Quit] 03:19 -!- son0p [~ff@adsl201-232-238-252.epm.net.co] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:19 -!- thrmo_ [~thrmo@unaffiliated/thrmo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:20 -!- thrmo is now known as Guest96305 03:20 -!- Guest96305 [~thrmo@unaffiliated/thrmo] has quit [Killed (card.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))] 03:20 -!- thrmo_ is now known as thrmo 03:25 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@host-im1adb.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:25 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@c-73-181-185-197.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:33 -!- yoleaux [~yoleaux@xn--ht-1ia18f.nonceword.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:34 -!- yoleaux [~yoleaux@xn--ht-1ia18f.nonceword.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:34 -!- dabura667 [~dabura667@240f:d:e193:1:81ec:aa09:8b76:4491] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:37 -!- jephalien_ [~jephalien@CPE00fc8d947f53-CM00fc8d947f50.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 03:40 -!- jephalien_ [~jephalien@CPE00fc8d947f53-CM00fc8d947f50.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:43 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has left #bitcoin-wizards ["http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. 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#bitcoin-wizards 09:45 -!- SopaXorzTaker [~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:46 -!- thrmo [~thrmo@unaffiliated/thrmo] has quit [Quit: Waiting for .007] 09:47 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kddufgfhxuuqfclu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:50 -!- benny77564 [2d3f1d60@gateway/web/freenode/ip.45.63.29.96] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:50 < benny77564> Here's a few cryptocurrencies I invested in that made me $265,000 with a small investment https://tinyurl.com/yad8khq9 09:51 -!- kabaum [~kabaum@h-13-35.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:51 -!- benny77564 [2d3f1d60@gateway/web/freenode/ip.45.63.29.96] has quit [Client Quit] 09:51 -!- kabaum [~kabaum@h-13-35.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:55 < kanzure> go away 09:57 < contrapumpkin> already gone, was just a drive-by spammer 09:57 -!- packetsmurf [coinsmurf@96-66-250-198-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit 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ZZZzzz…] 15:59 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@c-73-181-185-197.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:59 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@c-73-181-185-197.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:03 -!- wxss [~user@185.145.66.249] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:06 -!- daszorz [~daszorz@cpc106809-live29-2-0-cust896.17-2.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:10 -!- jb55 [~jb55@70-36-49-138.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:12 -!- sdhand [~sam@unaffiliated/kyubiko] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:13 -!- sdhand [~sam@runciman.hacksoc.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:14 -!- sdhand is now known as Guest3182 16:17 < maaku> is there a list of non-linux UNIXen that bitcoind runs on? 16:30 -!- Guest3182 [~sam@runciman.hacksoc.org] has quit [Changing host] 16:30 -!- Guest3182 [~sam@unaffiliated/kyubiko] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:30 -!- Guest3182 is now known as sdhand 16:46 -!- yoleaux [~yoleaux@xn--ht-1ia18f.nonceword.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:47 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@9.sub-174-216-27.myvzw.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:48 -!- cosmicthing51 is now known as comsicthing51 16:52 -!- marcoagner [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/marcoagner] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:52 -!- eck [~eck@fsf/member/eck] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:53 -!- marcoagner [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/marcoagner] has quit [Client Quit] 16:55 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@9.sub-174-216-27.myvzw.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:03 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@2601:600:d:e75f:5d56:95d9:11a3:b60f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:05 -!- CubicEar_ [~cubiceart@2600:100f:b021:6082:600d:c4d0:c156:a8d1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:05 -!- CubicEar_ [~cubiceart@2600:100f:b021:6082:600d:c4d0:c156:a8d1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:06 -!- CubicEar_ [~cubiceart@2600:100f:b021:6082:600d:c4d0:c156:a8d1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:07 -!- CubicEar_ [~cubiceart@2600:100f:b021:6082:600d:c4d0:c156:a8d1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:07 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@2601:600:d:e75f:5d56:95d9:11a3:b60f] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:09 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@2600:100f:b021:6082:2114:927c:eb0e:bc70] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:16 -!- srpx_ [b1eb4d0d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.177.235.77.13] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:17 < srpx_> What exactly are the odds a transaction is final after X confirmations? I can't find the precise numbers. 17:21 < sipa> a good start would be the bitcoin whitepaper 17:24 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@2600:100f:b021:6082:2114:927c:eb0e:bc70] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:25 -!- itsme__ [~textual@x4d04f4ad.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 17:26 < srpx_> sipa: yes it is there, thanks for answering my question without making it sound stupid 17:27 < sipa> srpx_: it's more complicated than that though, depending on what you assume 17:27 < comsicthing51> how can the odds be a fixed number? 17:27 < sipa> if your assumptions are specific enough, the odds are specific too :) 17:28 < comsicthing51> so you mean the odds numbers are based on the past performance, or theoretical "what ifs" ? 17:28 < andytoshi> against an attacker with a fixed <50% amount of hashpower, the odds they will succeed can be defined very precisely. against a sufficiently funded attacker with >50% hashpower, ofc, all bets are off and they can rewrite the entire chain 17:28 < andytoshi> comsicthing51: the numbers in the whitepaper are purely math. 17:29 < comsicthing51> but what does math have to do with an unplanned event that isn't in the whitepaper? 17:29 < srpx_> sipa: that's more or less what I wanted, though 17:29 < srpx_> was just having a "debate" with someone claiming that raiblocks confirms a transaction in 0.001s 17:30 < srpx_> and I'm trying to let him understand that whatever they mean by a "confirmation" is certainly not what he think it is 17:30 * srpx_ sighs 17:31 -!- jb55 [~jb55@70-36-49-138.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:32 < comsicthing51> sipa, i was checking out the bitcoin source, and i noticed your name was in the credits for the dns seed stuff....is that your brainchild? 17:32 < comsicthing51> i have some ideas about that 17:34 < kanzure> just speak details 17:35 < comsicthing51> i think there should be multicast routing used with bitcoin block chunks being broadcast from random nodes 17:36 < comsicthing51> to seed new nodes 17:36 < comsicthing51> random nodes could broadcast different parts of the blockchain 17:36 < comsicthing51> to mulitcast 17:36 < comsicthing51> instead of the dns seeds 17:36 < comsicthing51> then each node can tune into whatever "broadcast" of blocks they need at any time to sync 17:37 < comsicthing51> from randomfull nodes 17:38 < sipa> that has really nothing to do with how peers find nodes 17:39 < comsicthing51> they wouldnt have to find any nodes at all to sync 17:39 < comsicthing51> they'd connect to multicast 17:41 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-204-28-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:42 -!- StopAndDecrypt [~StopAndDe@unaffiliated/stopanddecrypt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:43 -!- StopAndDecrypt [~StopAndDe@c-73-248-248-9.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:43 -!- StopAndDecrypt [~StopAndDe@c-73-248-248-9.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:43 -!- StopAndDecrypt [~StopAndDe@unaffiliated/stopanddecrypt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:52 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@unaffiliated/belkaar] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:54 < comsicthing51> sure, it's probably a lot more difficult than making clients connect to IRC or to a list of IP addresses, but it seems totally doable. 17:55 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@xdsl-78-35-66-25.netcologne.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:55 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@xdsl-78-35-66-25.netcologne.de] has quit [Changing host] 17:55 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@unaffiliated/belkaar] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:58 < sipa> comsicthing51: you may want to look into FIBRE 17:58 < comsicthing51> i looked into that, but isnt that mostly used by miners? 17:59 < sipa> yes, they're the ones who care about low latency propagation 17:59 < sipa> well - it's in everyone's best interest that there is low latency between miners 17:59 < comsicthing51> the main reason being orphaned blocks? 17:59 < sipa> but few nodes care about having low latency themselves 17:59 < comsicthing51> why is low latency most important? 18:00 < sipa> mining on top of the previous while another miner already found a block is wasted 18:01 < sipa> and more importantly, a collusion attacker doesn't suffer from delays in learning about other's blocks (because he only builds on top of his own blocks) 18:01 < sipa> hence, all hash power wasted on already-outdated blocks by honest miners is a direct loss w.r.t. an attacker 18:02 < comsicthing51> how much money does a large mining operation by mining 100ms after a block is already found? 18:02 < comsicthing51> *how much do they lose? 18:02 < comsicthing51> by continuing with 100ms after the block was found? 18:02 -!- Murch [~murch@96-82-80-28-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Snoozing.] 18:03 < sipa> there's a 0.016% chance that a block is found 100ms after the next 18:03 < sipa> so 0.016% of their income 18:03 < comsicthing51> so being late is mainly missed opportunity cost, not the cost of electric? 18:04 < belcher> both, note that mining is zero sum so one miner's loss is all the other miner's gain 18:04 < belcher> you might be interested in this mathematical treatment of miner latency costs https://petertodd.org/2016/block-publication-incentives-for-miners 18:05 < comsicthing51> has a block ever been found 100ms after the previous? 18:06 < comsicthing51> or we are still waiting for the 0.016% chance to occur? 18:07 < belcher> 0.016% is once every 6250 blocks, so roughly every 43 days 18:07 < sipa> comsicthing51: given that the delay on the network is much larger than that in practice, i suspect that the point is exactly that we wouldn't even know if it happened 18:08 < comsicthing51> i didnt realize 100ms happened that frequently. im skeptical of that frequency, but, im skeptical of everything. nothing personal. 18:08 < sipa> the public bitcoin P2P network is much closer to a random graph 18:09 < sipa> so there are (ignoring special networks like FIBRE or special links between miners that know eachother) likely several hops between two miners 18:09 < sipa> each hop will add a delay to propagation 18:09 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-204-28-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:09 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:09 < comsicthing51> i mean for like 200 bucks a month you could get a t1 direct connect between miners with like 3ms 18:10 < comsicthing51> but i hear ya 18:10 < sipa> assuming they're geographically close enough to each other 18:10 < comsicthing51> they have wide area t1 18:10 < sipa> 3ms is not possible if you're more than 900km apart 18:10 < comsicthing51> but it wouldnt be 3ms 18:10 < sipa> speed of light 18:11 < sipa> it's also more complicated because of selfish mining incentives 18:11 < sipa> larger miners don't actually have that much of an incentive to propagate their blocks quickly 18:12 < sipa> it's the rest of the network that cares about them doing so 18:15 -!- comsicthing51 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