--- Log opened Wed Jan 24 00:00:32 2018 00:02 -!- bdar [c000c30f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.0.195.15] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:20 -!- Murch [~murch@c-73-223-113-121.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Snoozing.] 00:27 -!- PaulTroon [~PaulTroon@63.76.128.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:32 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:e845:3c84:8c8:d701] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:05 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:05 -!- espes__ [~espes@205.185.120.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:06 -!- espes__ [~espes@205.185.120.132] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:09 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:21 -!- Emcy_ [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:24 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:35 -!- emzy [~quassel@raspberry.emzy.de] has quit [Changing host] 01:35 -!- emzy [~quassel@unaffiliated/emzy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:44 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:47 -!- daszorz [~daszorz@188.94.18.118] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:47 -!- Emcy_ [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:58 -!- afilini [~textual@212.91.77.39] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:09 -!- dabura667 [~dabura667@p98110-ipngnfx01marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:13 -!- dabura667 [~dabura667@p98110-ipngnfx01marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:29 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:34 -!- espes__ [~espes@205.185.120.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:35 -!- espes__ [~espes@205.185.120.132] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:36 -!- afilini [~textual@212.91.77.39] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Air has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 02:41 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:41 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Client Quit] 02:47 -!- jtimon [~quassel@41.31.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:50 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:54 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@host-im1adb.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:55 -!- espes__ [~espes@205.185.120.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:55 -!- wxss [~user@185.145.38.233] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:01 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:03 -!- afilini [~textual@212.91.77.39] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:06 -!- shesek [~shesek@bzq-84-110-60-135.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:06 -!- shesek [~shesek@bzq-84-110-60-135.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Changing host] 03:06 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:07 -!- thrmo [~thrmo@unaffiliated/thrmo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:12 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:13 -!- espes__ [~espes@205.185.120.132] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:16 -!- dabura667 [~dabura667@p98110-ipngnfx01marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:21 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:e845:3c84:8c8:d701] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:24 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:e845:3c84:8c8:d701] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:27 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:31 < HSF_Prince_Loaf> hi. does anyone trade bitcoin tracker one in interactive brokers? 03:31 < HSF_Prince_Loaf> damn wrong channel :P 03:44 -!- nsxNP [~nsxNP@dslb-094-222-210-184.094.222.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:08 -!- SopaXorzTaker [~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:10 -!- SopaXorzTaker [~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:10 -!- SopaXorzTaker [~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:13 -!- SopaXorzTaker [~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:13 -!- SopaXorzTaker [~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:14 -!- SopaXorzTaker [~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:14 -!- SopaXorzTaker [~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 04:18 -!- afilini [~textual@212.91.77.39] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Air has gone to sleep. 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#bitcoin-wizards 17:21 -!- epscy_ [~epscy@176.126.241.239] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:22 -!- eck [~eck@fsf/member/eck] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:23 -!- mdrollette [~mdrollett@feynman.drollette.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.6.5 - http://znc.in] 17:23 -!- mdrollette [~mdrollett@feynman.drollette.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:31 -!- nuncanada [~dude@179.235.130.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:33 -!- Cheeko [ac5b4fad@gateway/web/freenode/ip.172.91.79.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:41 < Guest82744> Sooooooo 17:42 < Guest82744> Trades? 17:42 < sipa> wrong channel 17:43 < gratefuldad> this channel is for not talking. shhhh. 17:45 < contrapumpkin> so bitcoin atom's big selling point is that it comes with atomic swaps *runs* 17:47 -!- son0p [~ff@adsl201-232-238-252.epm.net.co] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:52 -!- dabura667 [~dabura667@p98110-ipngnfx01marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:53 -!- eck [~eck@fsf/member/eck] has quit 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-!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:e845:3c84:8c8:d701] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:58 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:e845:3c84:8c8:d701] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:59 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:00 -!- legogris [~legogris@128.199.205.238] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:00 -!- legogris [~legogris@128.199.205.238] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:02 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:e845:3c84:8c8:d701] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:03 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:e845:3c84:8c8:d701] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:07 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:e845:3c84:8c8:d701] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:08 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:e845:3c84:8c8:d701] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:17 -!- MaxSan [~user@185.156.175.43] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:19 < MaxSan> Do i understand this right that using MuSig style for signatures that we can have non interactivity on combining signed inputs? 21:20 < MaxSan> so anyone can basically sign extra inputs on any transaction within their own mempool? and the original publisher of the tx would be able to validate their own transaction still? 21:24 < sipa> MuSig is interactive 21:25 < sipa> and not really the best choice for cross-input signature aggregation 21:25 < sipa> what you're describing sounds more like BLS signatures (which support non-interactive aggregation) 21:26 < sipa> though to combine extra inputs into transactions you want something like OWAS or MimbleWimble 21:27 < PaulTroon> I thought it required interaction.. on page 5 of the paper it lists the number of rounds and the paper has 2 (rather than 3) 21:27 < sipa> yes 21:28 < sipa> many people seem to be reading way too much into MuSig 21:30 < PaulTroon> MaxSan might be interested in Tadges formulation for non-interactive sig aggregation using Schnorr: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-May/014272.html 21:31 < PaulTroon> Seems like andytoshi and tadge both have worked on this idea 21:32 < sipa> yes you can aggregate 50% of Schnorr signatures non-interactively 21:32 < sipa> but not entirely 21:32 < PaulTroon> BLS seemms kind of like magic if it can do full non-interactive sig aggregation 21:32 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:e845:3c84:8c8:d701] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:33 < PaulTroon> the Rs, yes 21:33 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:e845:3c84:8c8:d701] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:34 < PaulTroon> as far as I understand, the performance hit is primary negative for BLS, but I thought maybe there was some deeper cryptographic drawback also 21:34 < sipa> it relies on pairing 21:35 < sipa> which is more novel, and an additional assumption on top of elliptic curve DL 21:35 < sipa> further, if all you get from it is block-wide aggregation rather than tx-wide aggregation... i'm very hesitant 21:35 < sipa> block-wide aggregation breaks caching of tx validity, for example 21:36 < sipa> or at least complicates it significantly 21:36 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:37 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:e845:3c84:8c8:d701] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:38 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:e845:3c84:8c8:d701] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:40 < PaulTroon> Since the Rs aren't secret, can they be something derived from P? H(P) .. that would reduce what needs to be communicated 21:40 < sipa> unfortunately, no 21:41 < sipa> they must be chosen randomly by the signers, or they leak their private key through the s value 21:41 < PaulTroon> ah, that makes sense 21:43 -!- MaxSan [~user@185.156.175.43] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:43 < PaulTroon> the use case for sig aggregation I'm investigating is a bit different 21:46 < PaulTroon> I want to make sure a signer can't remove the signatures and messages from the aggregate signature of previous signers 21:46 < sipa> in BLS? 21:47 < PaulTroon> I believe BLS can do this, but have not seen it used just for that 21:47 < PaulTroon> though that seems to be true of all aggregate signature schemes 21:47 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:e845:3c84:8c8:d701] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:48 < PaulTroon> maybe it's overkill 21:48 < sipa> i believe in BLS, if you have an aggregate, and you have seen an individual signature that is included in the aggregate, you can also remove it 21:48 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:e845:3c84:8c8:d701] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:49 < sipa> in Bellare-Neven (what i'm considering to propose for bitcoin for cross-input signature aggregation), it's impossible, as every signer commits to the keys and messages of everyone 21:50 < PaulTroon> I'm looking at a mesh network message passing use case where the nodes could keep their signature secret before aggregating it 21:50 -!- nsxNP [~nsxNP@dslb-188-102-031-226.188.102.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:51 < PaulTroon> it's different from the block compression/privacy use case I think, and my concern is only that perhaps aggregate signatures is overkill 21:52 -!- airbreather [~airbreath@d149-67-99-43.nap.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:53 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:e845:3c84:8c8:d701] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:53 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:e845:3c84:8c8:d701] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:58 < PaulTroon> hearing andytoshi talk about mw and tadge talk about DLCs it seems like building on the schnorr signatures scheme has many advantages 22:02 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:e845:3c84:8c8:d701] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:03 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:e845:3c84:8c8:d701] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:08 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:e845:3c84:8c8:d701] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:08 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:e845:3c84:8c8:d701] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:13 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:e845:3c84:8c8:d701] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:13 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:e845:3c84:8c8:d701] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:18 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:e845:3c84:8c8:d701] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:18 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:e845:3c84:8c8:d701] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:23 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:e845:3c84:8c8:d701] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:23 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:e845:3c84:8c8:d701] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:28 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:e845:3c84:8c8:d701] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:28 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:e845:3c84:8c8:d701] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:33 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:e845:3c84:8c8:d701] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:33 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:e845:3c84:8c8:d701] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:36 -!- maaku [~maaku@173.234.25.100] has quit [Quit: ZNC - 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