--- Log opened Fri Feb 09 00:00:47 2018
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02:49 < Alanius> waxwing: you are absolutely right, some protocols need more transcripts for extraction than just two
02:50 < Alanius> I know of a generalized notion called n-special-soundness which guarantees witness-extractability from 2^n transcripts
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02:55 < Alanius> The notion is treated properly in this paper: https://doi.org/10.1007/s10623-014-0009-7 (unfortunately I don't know of a version that's not behind a pay wall) "Extended security arguments for signature schemes"
02:59 < waxwing> Alanius, perhaps i can generate 2^n fake versions of the paper
03:00 < Alanius> other papers (including an earlier version of the one I just cited) generalize special soundness for 2n+1 pass protocols in such a way that extractability is guaranteed from 1+n transcripts but I am skeptical those notions can correctly capture the requirement. The intuition is that there are n points where the transcripts can start to diverge and you might need the entire tree to extract.
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03:02 < waxwing> thanks for explaining a bit; i'm finding the maze of definitions in this field quite hard to get on top of ... in the book i previously mentioned, knowledge soundness is just defined as relating to 2 transcripts and that's it (19.4). guess it's just context dependent.
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03:05 < Alanius> this paper contains a discussion on the wrong and right notions, including an explicit reference to the paper I cited above, as well as an application: https://joostrijneveld.nl/papers/mqdss/20161201_mqdss.pdf
03:05 < Alanius> (and it's not behind a pay wall :D)
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03:06 < Alanius> the definitions are maybe not fuzzy per se but certainly not consistent across papers even from the same author
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03:06 < waxwing> right, not fuzziness, just lots of them, more like.
03:07 < Alanius> I must say I admire the bravery of boneh and shoup for deciding once and for all what the right definitions are
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03:18 < Alanius> Having said that, I do find their choice of definitions odd. They don't mention special soundness but define knowledge soundness as that property that is elsewhere called special soundness.
03:20 < Alanius> I always thought that knowledge soundness was a more general notion, identical to witness-extractability, and referring to the existence of polynomial-time witness extractor who upon black-box interaction with the prover (or forger) can extract the witness. This more general notion boils down to special soundness in the specific case of sigma protocols.
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03:25  * waxwing struggles to remember what 'special' meant, but only remembers it in the context of special HVZK
03:26 < Alanius> special soundness: given two accepting transcripts with the same first message but a different second one, it's possible to get the witness
03:40 < PaulTroon> Alanius, here's a non-paywall version of that paper you mentioned: https://hal.inria.fr/hal-01313619/file/main.pdf
03:46 < waxwing> PaulTroon, thanks
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11:17 < grubles> where can i read about lightning watchtowers?
11:18 < grubles> nevermind i found https://github.com/mit-dci/lit/tree/master/watchtower
11:18 < kanzure> briefly mentioned here http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/blockchain-protocol-analysis-security-engineering/2018/hardening-lightning/
11:18 < grubles> oh nice. thank you.
11:19 < kanzure> ("outsourcers" etc)
11:19 < belcher> there was a whole talk on them at scalingbitcoin milan 2016, but their site is down now
11:19 < belcher> the talk was called something like "trustlesses outsourced monitoring"
11:19 < belcher> trustless*
11:20 < grubles> great opportunity for "outsourcerer" wizard logo/meme/name
11:21 < grubles> belcher, that might be on youtube
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11:21 < kanzure> https://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/milan/unlinkable-outsourced-channel-monitoring/
11:22 < grubles> thanks
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20:44 < kanzure> "Ligero: Lightweight sublinear arguments without a trusted setup" https://acmccs.github.io/papers/p2087-amesA.pdf
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--- Log closed Sat Feb 10 00:00:48 2018