--- Log opened Thu Mar 15 00:00:19 2018
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02:46 < CubicEarths> Thinking about ways initial syncing could be made faster... validating everything form the beginning is a serial process. What if a semi-trusted provided information about various intermediate UTXO states, providing UTXO snapshots at different block heights. Then the load could be split up among different computers.
02:47 < CubicEarths> If the information provided was accurate, everything should match up once they chain fragments were fully verified.
02:49 < CubicEarths> If the semi-trusted source had lied, the fragments would not line up, and the lie would be revealed. So it would just extending trust to allow for parallel computations.
02:50 < CubicEarths> ( I am looking around at all of the computers surrounding me and wishing they could all work together to sync the chain faster)
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02:55  * CubicEarths thinks he really has a good idea this time
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03:06 < kallewoof> CubicEarths: you need to trust whoever provides the snapshots or they could stuff it with fake utxos and fool your node afterwards.
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03:08 < CubicEarths> kallewoof: I don't think so. If you were provided bad intermediate UTXO sets, you would just fail to validate, because the fragments wouldn't line up. And since you wouldn't know why they didn't line up, you would have made no progress.
03:08 < kallewoof> CubicEarths: actually I missed the fragment part. I  think people have thought about that.
03:10 < kallewoof> CubicEarths: Could be wrong though. It feels like it comes up every week on the mailing list :)
03:11 < CubicEarths> I def. don't see everything, but I've not been aware of this take on the idea
03:12 < CubicEarths> kallewoof: Do you understand what I am describing?
03:13 < kallewoof> CubicEarths: I think so. You basically have people give a partial representation of the UTXO set that will only validate if the parts all show the same UTXO set (i.e. nothing added/removed).
03:19 < CubicEarths> Well, lets say you just split the chain into two parts. I give you the UTXO set as of block 300,000. On computer A you validate from genesis to 300k (at which point you would verify that it matches the UTXO I provided you). On computer B, you would validate from the provided UTXO set until the current block.
03:24 < CubicEarths> kallewoof: So they would be a full representations of the utxo sets.. just at various points in block history
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09:52 < maaku> CubicEarths: validate state backwards. starting with the tip, validate pror blocks stepping backwards, with their inputs given alongside them
10:03 < stevenroose> maaku: is that actually been researched? that's actually quite a nifty idea
10:03 < maaku> it's just an old idea from this channel
10:04 < stevenroose> if you reasonably trust the longest chain you have (based on work), you could validate backwards while accepting new blocks
10:04 < eklitzke> how would you know which was the longest chain
10:04 < maaku> eklitzke: block headers
10:04 < stevenroose> nicething is that while you're validating backwards, you are building the actual UTXO set
10:04 < maaku> yes, you could take an untrusted UTXO set and validate backwards
10:04 < eklitzke> block header has the difficulty for a given block not the accumulated difficulty
10:04 < stevenroose> maaku: I mean without a starting utxo set
10:05 < stevenroose> eklitzke: you fetch all headers first, which is fast, and validate if it has enough work
10:05 < maaku> stevenroose: then I'm not sure what the gain is? you'd have to do full IBD before you coudl do anything
10:05 < eklitzke> i see
10:05 < stevenroose> maaku: not entirely, based on the assumption that people are more likely to spend more recent outputs
10:05 < maaku> if you get a UTXO snapshot from an untrusted source, you can do IBD while making progress on the tip and while doing normal full node activities
10:06 < maaku> while making a personal choice about when you start trusting the chain (1 week back? 1 month back?)
10:06 < stevenroose> while going backwards, all new outputs are automatically added to your final UTXO set and you take pending inputs with you backwards and use them to cancel out outputs
10:07 < maaku> eh, most of our infrastructure assumes the peers you talk to have the utxo set. without that assumption you wouldn't know what inputs to relay. messages would have to be added.. it gets real messy real fast
10:07 < stevenroose> would be so nice though if an outpoint would somehow give you an idea of how old it is
10:08 < stevenroose> maaku: you can refrain from relaying until after IBD
10:08 < maaku> stevenroose: pettycoin had per-block commitments of the spend's depth
10:08 < maaku> or height of the input; i forget
10:08 < stevenroose> you can do this: get headers and reasonably trust header chain
10:08 < maaku> stevenroose: then again, what would be the point? you're not able to do full-node things
10:09 < stevenroose> the go backwards and for every block:
10:09 < maaku> i know you CAN do it. I've thought this through, like 5 years ago ;) I just don't see the point
10:09 < stevenroose> add inputs to input set and for every output check if you saw an input, then validate, otherwise add to UTXO
10:09 < stevenroose> it means that you are constructing the REAL UTXO set gradually
10:10 < stevenroose> so the further you go, the more of the new blocks you can actually validate
10:10 < stevenroose> while when going 0 to end, you know nothing, because the UTXO you build is not final and can be spent from in later blocks
10:10 < maaku> I'm not sure why you have the emphasis on "real". Either approach validates the UTXO set.
10:10 < stevenroose> real I mean the one at the best chain
10:11 < stevenroose> you have an actual subset of the latest utxo set against which you can validate blocks
10:11 < stevenroose> just adding unresolves inputs to your pending inputs set
10:12 < stevenroose> it means that on the premise that the chain you are on ends up being the longest (which is increasinly likely if you are getting pow-valid blocks for it), you can already do validation of blocks and get a view into the UTXO set
10:14 < stevenroose> maaku: I'm not saying it will be faster, but it might make your node more useful until you finish. currently an out-of-sync node is useless because even 10 blocks behind, you can't accept a tx spending an output in the UTXO set of your longest validated chain
10:15 < stevenroose> in this alternative method, you can accept txs that spend from your UTXO set, just not the ones that spend outputs older than your progress, which are increasingly rare as you progress
10:16 < stevenroose> I mean ofc getting a UTXO set snapshot is more efficient, but that seems to not gonna happen soon and still requires you to download 10GB of data
10:17 < stevenroose> passing along UTXO snapshots also cause other problems, you will never be able to do it within one block period and most nodes only keep the latest UTXO set, so when your connection is slow (and you have a commitment to a set at a given block), you will find it increasingly harder to find nodes able to server the UTXO set at a given point
10:17 < stevenroose> serve*
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10:53 < CubicEarths> maaku: I was specifically thinking about using the idea to split work up amongst multiple computers. To make parallel a process that otherwise must be serial.
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10:57 < CubicEarths> There downside is that for each additional parallel 'thread', you would need to download yet another UTXO snapshot. So there is clearly a limit (which is likely in the single digits) beyond which nothing is gained...
11:01 < maaku> CubicEarths: to do that I think you just need relative age commitments
11:01 < maaku> then validating any range of blocks would generate two UTXO sets -- those which are assumed-valid from prior to the range, and which are carried forward into the future
11:05 < CubicEarths> What are 'relative age commitments'?
11:08 < CubicEarths> The way I understand the validation process to work, you need to have the complete utxo set for given height to be able to check if all the transactions in the next block are valid. And after processing that next block, you are in turn left with an updated UTXO set.
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11:10 < CubicEarths> So if I want to validate staring at block number 300,000, and proceed until the chain tip, wouldn't I need the utxo set as of block 300,000 as a starting point?
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11:30 < CubicEarths> maaku:
11:35 < maaku> require the witness to specify the blockheight of the output being spent
11:37 < arubi> doesn't this break monotonicity?  if a chain reorg happens and the input gets into a different height
11:39 < CubicEarths> arubi: The concept that I was describing?
11:40 < arubi> no I mean requiring the witness to specify the height of the txo spent
11:40 < arubi> maybe I'm missing some context so sorry about that
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11:41 < arubi> what I mean, if there's a chain of three blocks where each txo spends a next one, then a reorg happens, suddenly when a reorg happens these three spends can't be included in a single block
11:42 < arubi> without specifying the block height of the input, they could be
11:43 < arubi> s/ then a reorg happens,//   (writing two things at the same time :) )
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11:49 < CubicEarths> arubi: I was describing a way to make IBD parallel among independent computers. I suggested the user needed to acquire several different UTXO sets, from *intermediate heights*, and then the can validate starting from- and up to those heights and make sure everything matches.
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11:50 < sipa> you can just only store/verify UTXOs with a hash in a certain range
11:50 < sipa> if you want to shard validation
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11:54 < CubicEarths> sipa: How can you make any sense of an arbitrary block without a frame of reference? (which I thought the UTXO was)
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11:56 < sipa> CubicEarths: just assume that all inputs that spend a UTXO outside your range are valid
11:57 < maaku> arubi: the witness would be generated by the miner when the block is created
11:57 < maaku> no transactions are invalidated on a reorg
11:58 < arubi> maaku, ah, that's the context I was missing.
12:04 < CubicEarths> sipa: I think I understand. So you can just shard it arbitrarily, and then check that the UTXO sets have no conflicts?
12:05 < maaku> yes
12:05 < CubicEarths> So then, why not done? :)
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12:05 < maaku> you want to write a patch?
12:05 < sipa> the UTXO set is tiny
12:05 < sipa> (for now)
12:06 < sipa> and there are some logisitical issues, like needing a protocol by which the different shards can tell eachother about failure
12:06 < sipa> and wallets needing to contact all the shard to make sure a tx is valid, etc
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12:09 < CubicEarths> maaku: I was trying to understand if there were difficult theoretical issues...
12:10 < maaku> It's a massive amount of work and unlikely to actually fix the bottleneck to IBD for most people, and unusable by most people (who don't have clusters of machines to IBD), etc.
12:10 < maaku> So for the most part it's a solution in search of a problem.
12:16 < CubicEarths> I can see those points... but why do you think it wouldn't fix the bottleneck (if used)?
12:16 < CubicEarths> (what do you see the bottle as being?)
12:16 < CubicEarths> (bottleNECK)*
12:16 < sipa> initial sync, bandwidth, storage, cpu cost, ...
12:18 < CubicEarths> So it is so well balanced, there is no particular weak point... which seems to ironically be a counter-argument to progress :D
12:19 < maaku> More like it's not broken
12:19 < maaku> It'd only speed up IBD. IBD is fine
12:19 < maaku> Validation of IBD only takes a few hours -- if this was actually the bottleneck.
12:20 < sipa> it would speed up IBD at the cost of multiplying _all_ resource costs (except db size related ones)
12:21 < CubicEarths> I was thinking it would just be a temporary situation: Only used for IBD, and once synced, it would just collapse back to a single machine
12:24 < CubicEarths> maaku: You say that, but am always reading about people complaining, or suggesting it is the reason why blocks ought to be smaller
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17:35 < maaku> CubicEarths: I imagine such concerns would be placated by having a standard way of exporting a UTXO set from one node, and importing it (at initial boot) on another
17:35 < maaku> which would be a trivial amount of work
17:35 < maaku> most IBD are not from people entirely new to bitcoin
17:37 < CubicEarths> That would be a very welcome capability.
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17:39 < CubicEarths> I think the 'full node on a phone' camp is influential....
17:40 < maaku> core tech should not be succeptable to 'influence' in that connotation
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