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09:10 < waxwing> interesting PoS critique: https://medium.com/@hugonguyen/proof-of-stake-the-wrong-engineering-mindset-15e641ab65a2
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09:33 < Varunram> waxwing: I feel point 1 could be defended for PoS. If there is a case where the network is offline, when it comes back up, the "real" chain wouldn't the real chain be the chain that has the most number of validators?
09:33 < andytoshi> no
09:34 < andytoshi> that is not a verifiably measurable quantity
09:35 < waxwing> yeah i always like to put it as something like "proof of work is self-verifying" (i guess more just "independently verifiable"); no variant of "stake" can have that property.
09:35 < Varunram> pardon me if I'm wrong, in Casper, we have the validators voting on a particular chain, so we can simply find the net stake on a side and measure that?
09:36 < Varunram> happy to move to another chan if off-topic
09:36 < waxwing> PoS is kinda somewhat on topic here
09:36 < andytoshi> yes in casper you won't have a fork in this case
09:36 < Varunram> thanks, just wanted to be sure
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09:37 < andytoshi> normally "proof of stake' doesn't refer to the degenerate case where the whole thing is setup such that nobody validates the chain except some foundation, and everyone else just checks their sigs
09:38 < andytoshi> in which case you either have forks or stalls if a large segment of the signing set goes offline
09:38 < waxwing> fixed identities, even if they change in some way over time, solves a lot of things right.
09:38 < andytoshi> if you choose the stall option (as casper does) this is a DoS vector
09:38 < andytoshi> but since this is already how ethereum works, it doesn't matter
09:39 < Varunram> if there's a bad actor in those partitioned chain it could be worse I think
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14:52 < bsm117532> The thing being "staked" in PoS is a number on a spreadsheet, and has no tie whatsoever to economic reality.  Fiat is not destroyed in buying a staked coin, so there is zero net flow of value/cost into/out of the system.  Then you maximize over a set whose sum has zero net external cost to anyone (only relative cost).
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--- Log closed Fri Mar 30 00:00:33 2018