--- Log opened Fri Mar 30 00:00:34 2018
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01:21 < adlai> proof-of-work offloads the calculation of sybil probability to the axioms of thermodynamics.
01:22 < adlai> proof-of-stake just shuffles trust around like a two-bit huckster betting on a shell game.
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12:28 < TomElvisJudusor> Have you heard the news? Mimblewimbles screwed, the guys developing grin coin have only gone and followed Ethereum instead of the leader Bitcoin, and used a memory intensive POW called Cuckoo (which is a mad) instead of a random computation, they've forgotten that the reason that graphics cards were used in the first place is because that had fast computation. Satoshi had the right idea. There's a phrase with the ac
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12:29 < TomElvisJudusor>  with zeros is simple, and as long as the guesses are made randomly instead of incrementally, it's not the person with the biggest GPU that wins, it's the person with their fingers crossed the most.
12:30 < TomElvisJudusor> Somebody else make my protocol.
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12:31 < Guest98680> what were you saying about thermodynamics adlai?
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12:35 < Guest98680> I agree with TomElvisJudusor .. keep it simple stupid .. satoshi had the right idea
12:37 < Guest98680> i've seen the code for cuckoo, it's overly complicated. all they need is to randomly find a number.
12:37 < Guest98680> not start a big bang
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12:38 < Guest98680> says some nutter called john tromp developed it
12:38 < Guest98680> bet he takes drugs
12:38 < Guest98680> tromp you there mate?
12:38 < Guest98680> what were you thinking
12:38 < Guest98680> was it LSD?
12:39 < tromp> yes, i'm here
12:39 < Guest98680> thoughts?
12:40 < Guest98680> you're awfully quiet
12:40 < tromp> thoughts on what? i just got here
12:40 < tromp> cuckoo is the simplest possible pow
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12:40 < Guest98680> satoshi chose a simpler pow scheme
12:41 < tromp> no, sha256 is pretty complicated
12:41 < Guest98680> why did you have to go and reinvent the wheel sir
12:41 < tromp> compared to siphash24
12:41 < kanzure> tromp: this seems like irc spam to me
12:41 < Guest98680> and the memory requirement?
12:42 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [+o sipa] by ChanServ
12:42 <@sipa> go troll elsewhere
12:42 < Guest98680> that complicates things dear sir
12:42 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [+b *!*4e96a68c@*.78.150.166.140] by sipa
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12:42 < tromp> that makes it memory bound rather than compute bound
12:42 < tromp> no, memory is straighforward. and everybody has memory ASICs aka DRAM
12:42 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [-o sipa] by sipa
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12:43 < tromp> building a cuckoo ASIC to max out DRAM bandwidth should not be too hard
12:44 < tromp> and will be tiny and affordable
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12:44 < james> a binding that complicates requirements instead of simplifying them i might add
12:44 -!- james is now known as Guest77798
12:45 < Guest77798> you dont need to store anything to cycle through hashes until you find the right one
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12:46 < Guest77798> computing power is more affordable
12:46 < Guest77798> that was satoshis reasoning
12:46 < Guest77798> read the papers.
12:46 < tromp> i read his paper
12:46 < Guest77798> mores law
12:46 < Guest77798> ?
12:46 < tromp> there were no decent memory hard PoWs when he had to pick one
12:47 < tromp> so he picked the simplest known (hashcash)
12:47 < Guest77798> hmmm
12:48 < tromp> no idea if he might have liked the idea of memory bound pow
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12:48 < Guest77798> "hashcash stamp is added to the header of an email to prove the sender has expended a modest amount of CPU time calculating the stamp prior to sending the email. In other words, as the sender has taken a certain amount of time to generate the stamp and send the email,"
12:48 < Guest77798> there is no time in memory, only computation
12:48 < tromp> compute bound pow is certainly a good idea, and bitcoin's is close the the best choice for that
12:49 < Guest77798> i agree
12:49 < tromp> i'm trying to find out what could be the best form of memory bound pow
12:49 < Guest77798> i understand and its perfect
12:50 < Guest77798> to get to the point, i feel that keeping it computation bound is the wiser decision
12:50 < tromp> i'm not saying it;s better than compute bound.  i say let's try and see how it might tap in to the commodity DRAM market
12:50 < Guest77798> ahh
12:50 < Guest77798> i see where your going with this
12:50 < tromp> for the most efficient implementation
12:50 < Guest77798> hmm
12:51 < Guest77798> the only thought that comes to mind, is what would satoshi do
12:51 < Guest77798> i like your idea
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12:52 < Guest77798> im asking myself, what has bitcoin done to the gpu market, and what will it do for the ram market
12:52 < Guest77798> i dont see prices going down
12:52 < Guest77798> in fact, i see the same hardware from years ago with the same price tag
12:53 < Guest77798> with tweaks here and there
12:53 < Guest77798> new names
12:53 < Guest77798> it's almost as if moo'res law slowed down. the big boys get all the big toys
12:53 < Guest77798> we get the rebranded crap
12:54 < Guest77798> i want 64 core availability
12:54 < kanzure> move along to #bitcoin or somewhere else please, and refer to the /topic in the future (or lurk more)
12:55 < Guest77798> i guess my problem is that theoretically reduce adoption short term is not a problem for long term adoption
12:56 < Guest77798> im sorry tromp, your correct, there is no long term adoption problem with a memory bound pow
12:57 < Guest77798> not one that i can think  of
12:58 < Guest77798> all i know is that satoshi chose computations, that graphics cards were chosen for the same reason
12:59 < Guest77798> that long term, proof of work >works< without an additional requirement bogging down the future
13:00 < Guest77798> preventing those not upto date with technology due to fiat loosing value and prices going up
13:00 < Guest77798> adopting the technology
13:00 < Guest77798> that is free open source sofwtare
13:00 < Guest77798> with zero cost
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13:02 < Guest77798> i guess the problem is not that they adopt the software
13:02 < Guest77798> its how much value has
13:02 < Guest77798> a cryptocurrency bound to computation has more value than that of one bound to memory
13:03 < Guest77798> i understand bitcoins an experiment, and that you want to experiment also
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13:03 < Guest77798> your ahead of your time dear sir!
13:04 < Guest77798> whats best for the cryptocurrency?
13:05 < Guest77798> specifically the future of cryptocurrencies
13:05 < Guest77798> a penny for your thoughts
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13:09 < Guest77798> i can buy a 1tb hdd cheaper than 4gb of ram
13:09 < Guest77798> why go with DRAM?
13:09 < Guest77798> because it's faster :(
13:09 < Guest77798> ?
13:10 < Guest77798> isn't whats important to cryptocurrency faster computation, faster storage?
13:10 < Guest77798> larger storage
13:11 < Guest77798> we don't need to create a shortage in RAM
13:12 < Guest77798> with the advances that grin coin brings to the community of all crypto enthusiasts, you must ask yourself. am i doing the right thing
13:12 < tromp> we don't know how to make a simple proof of disk space. bram cohen is trying, but it's looking awfully complicated
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13:14 < Guest77798> you pulled a tromp card there...
13:15 < Guest77798> i guess i need to invest in some dram
13:15 < Guest77798> errr
13:15 < Guest77798> it's fixed
13:15 < Guest77798> 4-6gb you say?
13:15 < Guest77798> i understand computation bound proof of work is scalable
13:16 < tromp> this is quite offtopic, go to grin gitter to discuss further
13:16 < Guest77798> what are your plans for scalability with cuckoo
13:16 < Guest77798> scalability is a future topic for cryptocurrency
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13:18 < Guest77798> i get more bang for my buck with bitcoin on a 128 core cpu, with cuckoo and 128gb of dram .. might as well have wasted my money on 120gb of it
13:20 < Guest77798> are you sure that the technology is ready to be implemented?
13:20 < Guest77798> it doesnt sound like proof of dram at all to me
13:20 < Guest77798> only a little bit
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