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02:46 < Varunram> Taek: there was a series of tweets related to hashgraph recently, might want to take a look - https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/982655914225295360.html
03:17 < bsm1175321> mmm yeah.  Hashgraph appears to have gone off the deep end.
03:18 < bsm1175321> In other news, I'm pretty sure that the kind of graph (braid) generated by blocks with multiple parents is O(n) to analyze, contrary to some statements made by Sompolimpsky recently.  If true this would be awesome.
03:19 < bsm1175321> In other words, analyze this kind of DAG is NOT an NP-complete problem.
03:20 < bsm1175321> And all the people using arbitrary marking, scoring, voting rules to order the DAG don't need to do that.  They just need to do a bit more work to understand it.
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03:41 < bsm1175321> Hashgraph, Iota and the like are being lazy WRT the work that has gone on in mathematics on graphs.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planar_graph
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07:41 < Taek> Varunram: I will not be looking at anything hashgraph related due to its patents
07:47 < bsm1175321> ^^^ I second that.
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08:46 < hk3380> Can LN or a 3rd-layer solution on top of LN make it such that transactions between clients and merchants are feeless?
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08:54 < bsm1175321> hk3380: LN itself can be fee-less.  Just make a payment channel directly to the merchant, or find a route that doesn't charge fees.
08:55 < hk3380> bsm1175321: But you need to pay a fee to make a payment channel, no?
08:55 < sipa> these are meaningless questions
08:55 < sipa> fee is a an implementation detail
08:55 < bsm1175321> Correct.  But once the channels are open it can be fee-less, and channels can stay open indefinitely.
08:55 < sipa> there are always costs involved
08:56 < bsm1175321> Long term I agree with sipa -- feeless is a pipe dream, and people will recoup their costs through fees.
08:56 < sipa> for example, the receiver takes a censorship risks if the buyer tries to get a previous state mined
08:56 < hk3380> But doesn't Nano provide feeless payments for example?
08:56 < sipa> furthermore, even the fees in transactions "can" be free - if you have a miner who wants to mine them
08:57 < sipa> but someone is still paying for network infrastructure
08:57 < sipa> fees are not what you should care about
08:57 < sipa> costs are
08:57 < sipa> if the costs are low, low fees will follow
08:57 < bsm1175321> hk3380: you mean RaiBlocks?  anything that claims to be feeless is hopelessly naive and should be ignored, because its creators are idiots.
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08:58 < hk3380> But the costs for RaiBlocks seem to be low: just running a pruned full node to validate transactions no?
08:58 < hk3380> I've been trying to figure out what can be wrong with RaiBlocks/Nano's model but I can't figure out?
08:58 < bsm1175321> Oh god it's another DAG-thing...
08:59 < bsm1175321> Anything that has zero fees can be shut down at near-zero cost to an attacker, by generating a large number of low-value, zero-fee transactions.
08:59 < hk3380> But they have a small adjustable PoW to protect against this
09:00 < bsm1175321> Then the value of the coin is the amount of "small adjustable PoW" used, because PoS systems have zero cost and zero value.
09:01 < hk3380> Why zero value though?
09:01 < bsm1175321> Because no one put any money into it.
09:01 < bsm1175321> Buying a VIP ticket on your spreadsheet does not cause the *spreadsheet*itself* to have any value.
09:02 < hk3380> I'm confused. If you can use their tech to transfer coins that have exchange rate value, does this not mean they have some value?
09:04 < bsm1175321> No.  When you buy something on an exchange, the dollars do not cease to exist or get transferred into the system.  The remain outside the system in someone else's hands.
09:05 < bsm1175321> PoS has zero net flow of value into the system, and remains a system of zero value.  Then people speculate on top of that.
09:05 < bsm1175321> By contrast, PoW systems have a net flow of real-world value into them by burning that real-world value (mining HW, electricity costs).
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09:07 < hk3380> Well you still use electricity/hw to host nodes and validate transactions, but indeed you pay less than what Bitcoin miners pay. Is this bad though? Why shouldn't a (d)PoS system work if it facilitates fast/feeless transactions of value
09:08 < bsm1175321> hk3380: you're describing a database, where the cost of validating transactions is marginal compared to the size of the transaction itself.  How would such a system ever achieve a value larger than its own marginal costs?
09:09 < bsm1175321> s/size/cost/g
09:09 < sipa> bsm1175321: i think you're missing the lack of trust
09:10 < sipa> in a system with a particioant (or group thereof) who is trusted with censorshipship rights it is certainly possible to transact coins of higher value than validation costs
09:11 < sipa> where is the link to the PoW criticism wroteup, andytoshi?
09:11 < hk3380> bsm1175321: Not exactly sure what you mean by achieving a value larger than its cost. If the system allows merchants or trades in general to be faster and cheaper in terms of fee, isn't the value provided relative or intractable to calculate
09:12 < bsm1175321> Trustless, BTF-databases are still valuable, don't get me wrong.  But let's not fool ourselves into thinking it's "money".  Such systems always have a counterparty risk in tying the database record to its external value.  That's where your censorship comes in sipa.  A censorship-resistant system which is not a digital bearer bond...
09:12 < bsm1175321> *BFT
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09:13 < hk3380> sipa: do you think Nano is a useful product? I didn't get your position initally sorry
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09:13 < bsm1175321> hk3380: best not to invest in things whose value is intractible to calculate.  That's the realm of fiat currency issuers.
09:15 < Varunram> hk3380: regarding no-fee stuff in Nano, its"fee less" because you validate other's transactions too, along with transmitting yours
09:16 < Varunram> and they have some weird stuff with two chains, you can go through their stuff on the wiki
09:17 < hk3380> bsm1175321: not really thinking about investing. I was thinking about its usefulness--I could see it being useful if it's really feeless and instant for merchants
09:18 < bsm1175321> Nothing in the real world is fee-less.  Everything has a cost.
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09:18 < hk3380> Varunram: I think that's IOTA's approach no? Validate at least 2 other transactions to send yours. I think Nano just counts on people running nodes for no explicit reward other than making sure transactions are valid and the network functions
09:19 < Varunram> hk3380: (maybe off-topic) Nano has two chains - a private one and a public one, but yeah, the "making sure transactions are valid and the network functions" part is the "fee" in some sense
09:20 < Varunram> because you pay for the electricity and stuff
09:20 < hk3380> Varunram: yeah I think that's why they call them feeless transactions rather than free transactions
09:20 < hk3380> to make the distinction a bit explicit
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09:21 < hk3380> i don't know about private/public chains. my understanding is that every user has their on blockchain (account-chain)
09:21 < hk3380> and transactions are send/receive blocks on top of the sender/receiver blockchains
09:22 < hk3380> "has their on" <- has their own*
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09:23  * Varunram agrees silently
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--- Log closed Mon Apr 09 00:00:42 2018