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05:10 < bsm117532> A braid (DAG) combined with mining into @lightning payment channels would solve the selfish mining problem, the orphan problem, and some of the unfortunate problems of @p2pool (like huge coinbases competing with the fees you could earn). New channel #braidpool for discussing this.
05:10 < bsm117532> I've got the DAG pieces figured out, I could use some help with the payment channel side of the idea.
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06:57 < sarang> What type of DAG consensus are you doing bsm117532?
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07:10 < kanzure> bsm117532: would you need an n-member payment channel setup between all n participating miners?
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07:13 < bsm117532> kanzure: yes.  DAG header would have to contain a commitment to a set of payment channel transactions that become valid if the mined block becomes part of the main chain.
07:14 < bsm117532> sarang: Consensus is the "cohorts" I've described previously, plus some new work for work-weighted ordering in sub-cohorts.  I'll describe the latter publicly very soon...
07:15 < kanzure> bsm117532: with payment channel construction, can do tiny miner payouts ya?
07:15 < bsm117532> That's the idea
07:15 < bsm117532> p2pool can do it too, at the expense of tiny payments consuming block space.
07:16 < bsm117532> Moving that to a payment channel is an obvious win
07:16 < bsm117532> Also, mining directly into payment channels could become a backbone of open payment channels for lightning users.
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07:17 < kanzure> iirc the problem was that tiny payments in coinbases would be outcompeted by larger obligations, hence why many miners get stuck with worthless shares
07:17 < kanzure> (small miners.. at least.)
07:17 < kanzure> in non-p2pool context
07:18 < bsm117532> can you elaborate on "outcompeted by larger obligations"?
07:18 < kanzure> cpu miner might be owed a payment by a pool but they will never put in a 0.000001 BTC output into the coinbase
07:18 < kanzure> (that would be a high payment for a modern cpu miner, but you get the idea.)
07:19 < bsm117532> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2135429.msg21352028#msg21352028
07:19 < bsm117532> Agreed.  Just didn't understand your phrasing.
07:29 < sarang> bsm117532: will be interested to see the setup and security models... there have been many DAG-style proposals, but precious few with good models and proofs
07:33 < bsm117532> sarang: in the context of a mining pool it's a lot simpler, because a block with multiple parents doesn't need a conflict-resolution rule. You just need to not punish orphans.
07:34 < bsm117532> Work-weighting gives a conflict resolution rule though.
07:34 < bsm117532> I've been harping that the work-weighting is pretty easy, but no one seems to have figured it out, so I'll write it up.
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07:37 < bsm117532> All the people working on DAGs seem to come up with weird weighting and scoring algorithms that are totally gameable (because naming your parents has zero cost). They're totally ignoring decades of CS and math literature on graph theory.
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14:49 < fltrz> I have a question about cryptography (not cryptocurrencies in specific). Actually the question is more about what the community (or alternatively prominent cryptographers) believes to be possible
14:51 < fltrz> how widely accepted is Impagliazzo and Rudich's result that hash-based secret key agreement is impossible?
14:53 < fltrz> is there a non-negligible fraction of the cryptographic community that still doesn't rule out hash-based secret key agreement? or do any prominent cryptographers refuse to rule this out?
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15:07 < maaku> fltrz: genuine question, why does it matter?
15:07 < maaku> science doesn't proceed by social consensus
15:08 < maaku> being right or not is factually checkable
15:09 < fltrz> it is relevant to orient a potential new result with respect to prior work, to introduce the reader
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15:10 < fltrz> i.e. suppose I come to the conclusion that objects on which no force acts should actually not necessarily be static, but follow linear motion, its kind of useless to publish as Newton already pointed it out
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15:10 < fltrz> so it is useful in science because scientific activity is inherently social in nature
15:11 < fltrz> maaku, in theory it is factually checkable, in practice very few papers even in mathematics are formalized to a machine checkable format (say metamath)
15:13 < maaku> factually checkable doesn't necessarily mean machine checkable. I mean if so inclined any cryptographer could go delve into the sub-field of hash-based key agreement scheme and decide for themselves
15:14 < maaku> and that's kinda more what this channel is geared towards
15:14 < fltrz> so there is a sub-field of hash-based key agreement schemes? if it exists it answers my question since then some cryptographers are still trying to come up with one
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15:34 < kanzure> maaku: fltrz is trying to figure out if it's on-topic for him to talk about hash-based key agreement schemes in here. he is wondering if the impossibility statement was refuted, because he thinks he has a thing that could work, and he is confused about it.
15:37 < fltrz> I also consider the possibility that the impossibility result is correct [in its claim that a black box reduction is impossible if one believes P!=NP], i.e. that hash-based secret key agreement schemes may be possible, but that they would need to be proven secure in a non black box fashion
15:38 < fltrz> if this is the case, I wonder if the cryptographic community is still searching for such schemes, and if not, why not? too intimidated by the impossibility result?
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17:06 < an4s> Hi, what are some good resources to learn about information propagation in the Bitcoin network?
17:07 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/gmaxwell-2017-11-27-advances-in-block-propagation/
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17:15 < an4s> Thanks
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18:07 < bsm117532> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=18313.msg19248232#msg19248232
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18:07 < bsm117532> "The second one is to add an uncle mechanism or DAG structure to the share chain. This would likely be much fairer, but it would require a p2pool hard fork and a substantial amount of new code. This would be the best option if developer time weren't an issue."
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18:10 < bsm117532> So from everything I read, the orphan share problem is the most serious thing killing p2pool... belcher's concerns about large coinbases are real, but not showing up at the small hashrate p2pool has right now.
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18:13 < BlueMatt> bsm117532: the issue was often lack of communication
18:13 < bsm117532> Are we talking people communication or node/sharechain communication?
18:14 < BlueMatt> bsm117532: people would be getting perfectly acceptable DOA rates (which may be valid bitcoin blocks that pay you out), while comparing those to pools where "stale" rates never pay you out
18:14 < BlueMatt> the issue in p2pool was what your DOA rate was *compared to others*, not the absolute value
18:14 < BlueMatt> but miners compared their absolute value to what other pools gave them anyway
18:14 < bsm117532> For clarity, a DOA is a sharechain orphan, correct?
18:14 < BlueMatt> yes
18:15 < bsm117532> It's freaking 30%...
18:15 < BlueMatt> re: mining: another approach is something like this: https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bips/blob/master/bip-XXXX.mediawiki
18:15 < BlueMatt> oh, I never saw it that high, was always more like a few %
18:15 < BlueMatt> maybe 5
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18:16 < bsm117532> That was kind of my interpretation the last time that I looked at this...that people were misunderstanding how p2pool worked.
18:16 < bsm117532> The name "DOA" certainly doesn't help
18:16 < BlueMatt> yea, I mean it was a combination of things, that was a big part of it
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18:16 < BlueMatt> ofc i doubt it'd've worked well across the gfw
18:16 < BlueMatt> but it was never populat enough by the time mining got bit in china to ever find out
18:17 < BlueMatt> there was some concept of auto-partiioning the network
18:17 < BlueMatt> into multiple p2pools
18:17 < bsm117532> I'm trying to nail down exactly what the technical problems with p2pool are.  Communications problems suck, maybe a new p2pool can dump the bad history mojo...
18:18 < BlueMatt> honestly I'm much more a fan of the centralized-pool-decentraized-transaction-selection model
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18:18 < BlueMatt> but maybe thats just cause we all got burned by p2pool adoption
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18:18 < bsm117532> That's the BIP draft you posted above?
18:18 < BlueMatt> yes
18:18 < bsm117532> Yeah :-/
18:19 < BlueMatt> I have it implemented and all (even mined a few testnet blocks), the issue is hitting roadblocks trying to get anyone to want to deploy it
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18:19 < bsm117532> Hey, if using a DAG worked for Iota, it can work for you!
18:19 < BlueMatt> lololol
18:19 < BlueMatt> clearly we need more marketing mumbojumbo then we can restart p2pool and win
18:20 < BlueMatt> have a few pending changes to the bip/impls that I wanted to do before posting it but got distracted the last 2 or so weeks so havent touched it, sadly
18:20 < bsm117532> This is what I was looking at when quoting 30% DOA http://p2pool.org/stats/
18:20 < bsm117532> WTF is that and WTF is this? http://p2pool.info/
18:21 < BlueMatt> hmm, who knows anymore, may be that there's a bunch of miners in china or some shit so everyone's doa gets fucked
18:21 < BlueMatt> also, iirc, those are just p2pool-backed pools
18:21 < BlueMatt> ie they just stand up an instance of p2pool, change the donation address/%, and then tell people to use it
18:22 < BlueMatt> it was very common for a wehile
18:22 < bsm117532> I can understand why p2pool is dying.  If I'm having this much trouble figuring it out...compared to just pointing my miner at a centralized pool...
18:22 < BlueMatt> (cause it was trivial to do - p2pool has good support for swapping out the web interface)
18:22 < BlueMatt> s/is dying/died long ago/
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18:23 < BlueMatt> does anyone seriously maintain it anymore?
18:23 < bsm117532> Dunno, I'm trying to revive it with braids and lightning payouts.
18:23 < bsm117532> Join #braidpool if you're interested
18:24 < BlueMatt> hmm, that sounds fun
18:24 < BlueMatt> can I convince you to deploy my already-built shit instead :p
18:24 < bsm117532> Maybe.  Will take me a bit to read it though :-P
18:25 < BlueMatt> tl;dr: clients select transactions/work, pool just manages payout
18:25 < BlueMatt> centralized, but not in ways the network cares about
18:25 < bsm117532> And the corresponding code is https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/mining-proxy ?
18:26 < BlueMatt> thats the part that listens on stratum, connects to a pool and a local bitcoind
18:26 < BlueMatt> you need the bitcoind part here: https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoin/commits/2018-02-miningserver
18:26 < BlueMatt> the pool side is only implemented as a toy demo in the mining-proxy repo
18:27 < BlueMatt> it is, sadly, not so intelectually interesting
18:27 < BlueMatt> more of a protocol-engineering thing
18:28 < bsm117532> 'tis needed
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18:37 < bsm117532> Oh boy...Rust...
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19:03 < bsm117532> FIBRE achieves 16ms over speed of light?  If you applied a braid on top of that, we'd be talking about a sub-second sharechain.
19:16 < BlueMatt> if i fixed mempool package relay it'd reliably be 0.5ms
19:16 < BlueMatt> but it is 0.5 ms when mempools are near 0 (eg now)
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--- Log closed Mon Apr 16 00:00:49 2018