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has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:43 -!- bsm117532 [~mcelrath@c-24-61-245-53.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:53 -!- vcorem [~vcorem@31.154.51.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:52 -!- narodnik [~kk@2a00:1508:1:f018:4c37:fc3c:b0fa:f386] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:54 -!- veleiro` is now known as veleiro 09:54 -!- veleiro [~user@ip241.67-202-80.static.steadfastdns.net] has quit [Changing host] 09:54 -!- veleiro [~user@fsf/member/veleiro] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:23 -!- SopaXorzTaker [~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:23 -!- SopaXorzTaker [~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:25 -!- roconnor [~roconnor@host-23-91-186-203.dyn.295.ca] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 10:29 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:91f:fb7a:ac26:5c5] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:36 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:91f:fb7a:ac26:5c5] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:44 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:45 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:55 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:00 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:01 < arubi> hey, I wrote about a method for scriptless atomic swaps that I think is pretty neat. it uses cut-and-choose for trustlessness and transaction hash preimages for atomicity in disclosing discrete logs : https://github.com/fivepiece/coinswap_cnc (pdf and tex for your convenience). let me know what you think 11:09 < kanzure> oh i see, using a non-sighash hash of the transaction as part of the atomicity guarantee 11:09 < arubi> yep, publishing the sighash itself means publishing the non-sighash preimage 11:12 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rhiyhnqohohojtlg] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 11:12 -!- narodnik [~kk@2a00:1508:1:f018:4c37:fc3c:b0fa:f386] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:13 < waxwing> kanzure, the neat thing is using NUMS on the fake values, i think :) 11:14 -!- narodnik [~kk@2a00:1508:1:f018:4c37:fc3c:b0fa:f386] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:23 -!- narodnik [~kk@2a00:1508:1:f018:4c37:fc3c:b0fa:f386] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:34 < gmaxwell> arubi: VERY COOL 11:34 < arubi> glad you like it :) 11:49 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:51 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:51 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:10 < andytoshi> arubi: is the only script support needed multisigs + timelocks? do the two chains need to use the same signature algorithm? same curve? 12:11 < gmaxwell> They need to be immune to malleability. And you need to be able to do ecdh with their pubkeys, 'blind sign' a sighash. 12:11 < gmaxwell> I think thats mostly it. 12:12 < gmaxwell> I think it would be interesting to think through using schnorr multisig to get rid of the CMS. 12:15 < andytoshi> i think with a 2-of-2 schnorr multisig it should be no different from CMS, since each party will know the sig that hits the blockchain as well as their own partial signature 12:15 < andytoshi> and the counterparty's partial signature will be the difference between these 12:19 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:23 < arubi> ah was afk, I see you got the answer :) 12:25 -!- polydin [~delphi@2602:306:b8b6:b970:4ce2:3ae1:2d0f:aa43] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:27 -!- thrmo [~thrmo@unaffiliated/thrmo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:28 < arubi> oh gmaxwell ecdh? is that something I'm assuming there? 12:31 < gmaxwell> arubi: not ecdh itself, but the pubkeys have to be in a dh group. You need it to be addive, cyclic, secure dl... e.g. I don't think you could just drop your protocol in with a hypothetical hash based signature blockchain on one side. 12:32 < arubi> ahh understood. I thought I was just not specifying somewhere where I did use "ecdh" as a building block. thanks 12:37 -!- polydin [~delphi@2602:306:b8b6:b970:80c4:1e41:923e:dbaf] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:39 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:41 < waxwing> i think the "half-scriptless" variant doesn't have the restriction of requiring anything of the other sig algo. 12:43 -!- veleiro [~user@fsf/member/veleiro] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:47 -!- SopaXorzTaker [~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:47 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:91f:fb7a:ac26:5c5] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:48 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:91f:fb7a:ac26:5c5] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:48 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:50 < gmaxwell> arubi: Why does it even need the nums in the cut and choose, can't alice just send a commitment to n t,h1 pairs, and bob picks one and asks alice to open all the rest of them? 12:51 < arubi> gmaxwell, yea but then it'd be n choose one 12:51 < arubi> basically alice can cheat 1/n times 12:52 < gmaxwell> Right, I don't see where you're adding up the points-- you say bob choose j? 12:52 < arubi> that's right 12:52 < arubi> although it could be chosen by both by some fair n side coin flip 12:54 < arubi> he chooses j from n guaranteed valid t,h1's. alice would've had to hit m other valid ones on the nums to evade bob detecting cheating 12:56 < gmaxwell> Right how is that not n choose 1? Alice flubs one pair, bob has her open all the nums ones. The one alice flubbed isn't one bob had her open. Then he happens to pick it. 12:57 < arubi> she doesn't know which are the nums in advance, so she'd have to avoid these whole m nums points for her cheating attempt 12:58 < arubi> if I'm missing something and it /is/ n choose one, then unfortunately this method is not usable :) 12:59 < arubi> oh but hmm, yea, why not have alice reveal the preimages for the i != j indexes... I think I'm beginning to see what you mean 13:01 < gmaxwell> Right. I don't think the nums adds anything. 13:03 < arubi> alright, awesome analysis. now to figure out a way to tweak it so it /is/ at the n+m choose n order :) 13:10 < waxwing> gmaxwell, if there are n reals and m fakes, and all the fakes pass, alice has to have made all the n reals be invalid for bob not to get what he wants 13:17 -!- shesek [~shesek@bzq-84-110-235-82.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:17 -!- shesek [~shesek@bzq-84-110-235-82.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:17 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:21 < arubi> waxwing, I think the thing here, alice doesn't broadcast until after bob made his choice of j. why shouldn't she just open all n+m except j, even the real ones? 13:21 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:21 < arubi> and if that's the case, why bother with nums? 13:22 < arubi> so seems like it reverts to 'choose 1'? I'm still going over it :) 13:22 < waxwing> yes, i'm getting there now, it's bob that must take action with one j here. 13:23 < arubi> if we could keep the nums in, but have /any/ of the real's be a useful DL disclosure.. 13:23 < arubi> pretty much what tumblebit does with the "hash OR hash OR hash..." yea 13:25 < waxwing> hmm ORs, interesting thought yeah. i was remembering the rsa quotient test but that was for a different thing. 13:45 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:91f:fb7a:ac26:5c5] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:45 < waxwing> yes, i glossed over this before in tumblebit: the 1/(nCm) cheating probability is achieved only for the assertion that at least one signature is correctly formed; the rsa quotient test is what's used to get round that: with it, if you get a decryption key for one of the sigs, you get a decryption key for all of them, so if only one of them is valid, you're still safe. 13:51 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:91f:fb7a:ac26:5c5] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:04 < waxwing> been thinking about it, i don't think that kind of model can carry over here (all revealed by 1), due to the way it's set up. maybe there's another way. 14:09 -!- Aaaaand [~quassel@213.152.162.181] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:14 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:23 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-72-54-46-190.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:25 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:33 -!- Aaaaand [~quassel@213.152.162.181] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:35 -!- Aaaaand [~quassel@213.152.162.181] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:37 < arubi> yea definitely going to try another way. in the mean time I added a warning reflecting the gist of what was said here on the repo, and I'll be adding it in the pdf itself too. back to the drawing board :) 14:59 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-csglexkajjnjzsag] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:08 -!- Guyver2 [AdiIRC@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 15:13 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:18 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:25 -!- Aaaaand [~quassel@213.152.162.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:32 -!- vicenteH [~user@54.104.135.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:32 -!- vicenteH [~user@54.104.135.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:36 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:37 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:49 -!- thrmo [~thrmo@unaffiliated/thrmo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:50 < gmaxwell> arubi: what you need is a way that all the unused entries get combined so that you're good so long as any are good. 15:50 < gmaxwell> but I don't see how to get towards that without a more complicated kind of proof. 15:51 < gmaxwell> I think we can use a bulletproof here to get what you want. irritatingly segwit's sighasher actually makes it harder. 15:53 < gmaxwell> so say H1() is sha256(sha256(tx)). Then we could make H0 sha256(tx). Then I could give you T,H1 and prove to you that T == xG && H1 == sha256(x). 15:53 < gmaxwell> And you're good to go, no cut and choose needed. 15:53 < gmaxwell> And a bulletproof for that would be perfectly reasonable. 15:53 -!- vicenteH [~user@54.104.135.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:54 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:54 -!- spinza [~spin@155.93.246.187] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...] 15:58 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:01 -!- spinza [~spin@155.93.246.187] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:02 -!- son0p [~ff@adsl201-232-238-252.epm.net.co] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:03 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:91f:fb7a:ac26:5c5] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:06 -!- modin [~modin@h-146-160.A444.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:07 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:09 -!- modin [~modin@h-146-160.A444.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:09 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bqolivehyjyrszws] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:10 < gmaxwell> sipa: I know we've pointed out before that the nested hashing could be useful for ZKP simplicity, but I think this is the first case where it has an obvious impact in an otherwise pratical protocol. 16:17 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:18 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:91f:fb7a:ac26:5c5] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:27 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:49 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:54 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:07 -!- Aaaaand [~quassel@213.152.162.181] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:36 -!- modin [~modin@h-146-160.A444.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:38 -!- modin [~modin@h-146-160.A444.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:40 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:91f:fb7a:ac26:5c5] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:41 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:91f:fb7a:ac26:5c5] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:06 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:91f:fb7a:ac26:5c5] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:07 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:91f:fb7a:ac26:5c5] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:13 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:19 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bqolivehyjyrszws] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 18:26 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:26 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:33 -!- Belkaar_ [~Belkaar@xdsl-87-78-236-174.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:36 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:40 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:51 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@x59cc9b3b.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:51 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@x59cc9b3b.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Changing host] 18:51 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@unaffiliated/belkaar] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:05 -!- grubles [~grubles@unaffiliated/grubles] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:07 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-csglexkajjnjzsag] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 19:19 -!- koshii [~mike@c-71-228-54-149.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:29 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:30 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:34 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:04 -!- ekrion [~ff@adsl201-232-238-252.epm.net.co] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:07 -!- son0p [~ff@adsl201-232-238-252.epm.net.co] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:30 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:91f:fb7a:ac26:5c5] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:46 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:91f:fb7a:ac26:5c5] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:50 < arubi> gmaxwell, oh cool. you mean H0 == sha256(x) for the proof right? I'll be looking into bulletproofs again to get some more intuition for how such a proof is built 20:50 -!- grubles [~grubles@unaffiliated/grubles] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:16 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:21 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:10 -!- modin [~modin@h-146-160.A444.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 22:14 -!- modin [~modin@h-146-160.A444.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:21 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@unaffiliated/belkaar] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:22 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@x59cc9b3b.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:22 -!- Belkaar is now known as Guest25762 22:28 -!- Guest25762 [~Belkaar@x59cc9b3b.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:35 -!- narodnik [~kk@2a00:1508:1:f018:4c37:fc3c:b0fa:f386] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:54 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:05 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:91f:fb7a:ac26:5c5] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:06 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:8891:836:7d0c:e3b6] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:13 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:23 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:24 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] --- Day changed Mon Jul 16 2018