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[~michaelsd@unaffiliated/michaelsdunn1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:23 -!- dougsland [~douglas@c-73-234-93-65.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:25 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:47 -!- someone235_ [~someone23@unaffiliated/someone235] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:57 -!- a5m0_ [~a5m0@unaffiliated/a5m0] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:08 -!- Kaizen_ [~kaizen_@38.98.37.138] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:10 -!- SopaXorzTaker [~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:12 -!- Guyver2 [AdiIRC@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:15 -!- setpill [~setpill@unaffiliated/setpill] has quit [Quit: o/] 08:16 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:22 -!- Kaizen_ [~kaizen_@38.98.37.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:24 -!- p0nziph0ne [p0nziph0ne@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/p0nziph0ne] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:24 -!- Kaizen_ [~kaizen_@38.98.37.138] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:25 -!- Kaizen_ [~kaizen_@38.98.37.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:25 -!- Kaizen_ [~kaizen_@38.98.37.138] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:31 -!- Kaizen_ [~kaizen_@38.98.37.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:40 -!- a5m0 [~a5m0@unaffiliated/a5m0] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:46 -!- Kaizen_ [~kaizen_@38.98.37.138] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:54 < kallisteiros> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4965806 08:54 -!- JackH_ [~laptop@host86-182-8-23.range86-182.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 09:02 -!- Kaizen_ [~kaizen_@38.98.37.138] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:02 -!- Kaizen_ [~kaizen_@38.98.37.138] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:12 -!- someone235_ [~someone23@unaffiliated/someone235] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:21 -!- Kaizen_ [~kaizen_@38.98.37.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:23 < maaku> kallisteiros: the linked paper is just a re-discovery of extension blocks 09:24 < kallisteiros> I haven't looked it up yet, but do you remember why it didn't get accepted? what were the counterarguments? 09:24 < maaku> I think the author's claims are disingenuous. unlike with segwit, non-upgraded clients do not see the extension block UTXO space 09:25 < maaku> I don't believe extension blocks are a useful upgrade path for that reason 09:25 < maaku> it is, essentially, a hard-fork chain with a peg 09:25 < maaku> oh that author is you, sorry :) 09:26 < kallisteiros> yep 09:26 < kallisteiros> so what if they don't see this UTXO space? why should they? 09:26 -!- Kaizen_ [~kaizen_@38.98.37.138] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:26 < maaku> Ok well let me say then that this is a better, more thorough write up of extension blocks than I've ever seen. There hasn't been a strawman proposal I believe 09:26 < kallisteiros> non-segwit clients don't see the witness data either 09:26 < maaku> So you have made a contribution :) 09:27 < kallisteiros> thanks 09:28 < maaku> But regarding my criticsm: let's say I say "send 2btc to 1Maaku..." and you do so on the extension block, but I haven't upgraded. I won't see it 09:28 < maaku> That can be fixed by encoding classic-vs-extension block in the address, but the general problem remains 09:28 < maaku> You can't have a transaction that spans both 09:29 -!- gmaxwell [gmaxwell@wikimedia/KatWalsh/x-0001] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 09:29 < kallisteiros> if you haven't upgraded, you won't give me a superspace address (which is either a bech32 like in SegWit or a P2SH starting with 3, but not 1Maaku) 09:29 < kallisteiros> to send bitcoins to 09:30 < kallisteiros> oh i see what you mean 09:30 -!- Kaizen_ [~kaizen_@38.98.37.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:31 < kallisteiros> right, I guess addresses in superspace need to have a different format 09:31 < kallisteiros> maybe a different checksum algo that will tell the legacy software it's an invalid address, but okay with upgraded software 09:31 < kallisteiros> or something 09:31 < maaku> Right, it can be worked around with proper payment protocol (by which I include address formats) support. 09:31 < kallisteiros> fair point 09:32 < maaku> But it does fall short of an ideal in which any bitcoin utxo can be spent along side another utxo 09:33 < maaku> Now I think we may have to go down that route. Explicit opt-in sharding (segregation of the utxo space) allows scaling without affecting centralization pressures other than validator resources 09:33 -!- Kaizen_ [~kaizen_@38.98.37.138] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:33 -!- tombusby [~tombusby@gateway/tor-sasl/tombusby] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:34 < maaku> But we should recognize that non-extension-block / non-sharding scaling has a direct benefit as well, in that you can have more UTXOs that can be co-spent in the same transaction 09:35 -!- tin_ [~tyn@104-56-112-203.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:36 -!- heyo [~kerfle@static-208-124-107-200.consolidated.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:36 < maaku> Which is necessary sometimes for smart contracting purposes, when you want to make sure that a transaction is invalidated if either one of the inputs is spent 09:36 < kallisteiros> actually, spending a normal utxo in the same superspace block and vice versa is possible, I just chose in this version of writeup to restrict that to avoid additional headache. like controlling that there's no double spends and such 09:36 < kallisteiros> if that's what you're talking about 09:37 < kallisteiros> but it's not a must 09:37 < kallisteiros> could be done, I believe 09:38 -!- kerfle [~kerfle@208.124.108.147] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:39 < maaku> kallisteiros: you have a mechanism for doing so in a bidirectional manner? I've looked at it and concluded that it was not possible 09:41 < kallisteiros> I mean, if the miner's validation software treats it as one big transaction space, it could accept a transaction in the same block. then upgraded nodes would see that this superspace tx's input is normal tx's output in the same block, and all is dandy, the block is valid 09:41 < kallisteiros> and legacy nodes wouldn't care 09:41 -!- Kaizen_ [~kaizen_@38.98.37.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:42 < kallisteiros> but it needs more test cases, such as trying to spend the same output in both worlds at the same time. this is a double spend and should be prevented 09:44 < kallisteiros> same reason I only proposed P2PKH on both sides to move bitcoin betwen spaces. could have had scripts too, like scripts in witness programs in segwit, but it could get messy very fast 09:45 < maaku> I'm not sure what you mean as "accept a transaction in the same block" in order to make other nodes see the spend? 09:46 -!- tombusby [~tombusby@gateway/tor-sasl/tombusby] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:46 < kallisteiros> oh I thought you meant the restriction to start spending outputs from one world in another only from the next block as undesirable 09:46 < kallisteiros> maybe I misunderstood 09:47 < kallisteiros> the legacy nodes wouldn't see the full picture of course 09:47 < kallisteiros> but wouldn't disrupt them either 09:49 < maaku> kallisteiros: Let's say as part of a transaction I contribute an output and you contribute an output too. The intention is that if either one of us spends our outputs, the other is cancelled as well. 09:49 < maaku> er, the operation on the other input is cancelled as well 09:50 < maaku> You can't do that across worlds. You'd need 2 transactions, and one transaction being double-spent wouldn't invalidate the other 09:50 < maaku> You could fix that by adding in lock-times and hash preimages, but now a single transfer requires 2 linked transactions which is inefficient 09:51 < kallisteiros> sorry, could you give an example on how it's achievable right now in the same space? 09:52 < maaku> kallisteiros: single transaction, you and I both contribute inputs. it can be invalidated by either one of us by double-spending our input. 09:53 < kallisteiros> right. so in the context of proposal, it would be two inputs from both worlds? 09:53 < maaku> this is typically the setup for a funding transaction for a smart contract 09:53 < maaku> right, i happen to have my inputs on shard A, and you have your inputs on shard B 09:56 < maaku> kallisteiros: you might find this talk useful, to see what is out there : https://scalingbitcoin.org/montreal2015/presentations/Day1/2-Bryan-scalingbitcoin-review-latest.pdf 09:57 < kallisteiros> trying to wrap my head around it. I know the invalidation part can be enforced by miners, but trying to come up with a format to reference two outputs from both worlds, and one of them is just a simple P2PKH output, not a superspace P2SH 09:57 < maaku> it is pre-segwit, but otherwise still relevant. written by @kanzure who is around here. 09:57 < kallisteiros> no idea yet 09:59 < maaku> hrm. i was going to point out that the "classic" tx (for lack of a better term) would have to reference the UTXOs of the extension block, which fundamentally limits how much extension this can provide 10:00 < maaku> but this could be reduced to one hash per tx, or even sign-to-contract to remove any extra data 10:01 < kallisteiros> do you think segwit can do this though? 10:02 < maaku> You mean hide this data the same way as segwit does? Sortof. 10:02 < maaku> The connection has to be covered by the signature in some way. Either as a hash in an output, for example, or sign-to-contract. 10:03 < kallisteiros> yeah that's what I was thinking. anyway, will need to think it through and add there, thanks for the food for thought 10:03 < kallisteiros> right now it's a bit restricted in terms of what it can do 10:03 < maaku> Both are messy solutions though, and not something I'd be happy about. 10:03 < kallisteiros> right 10:03 -!- Traino [~Traino@2a07:5741:0:135b::1] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:04 < maaku> The hash-in-output thing doesn't work well with sighash modes other than ALL, and sign-to-contract is way too useful a primitive to "waste" on this, and would require negative proofs for other transactions which is a non-starter. 10:20 -!- adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:20 -!- adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:26 -!- kallisteiros [scientist@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/kallisteiros] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:27 -!- kallisteiros [scientist@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/kallisteiros] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:32 < maaku> I said this privately to kallisteiros, but to anyone lurking my comment of "the linked paper is just a re-discovery of extension blocks" was meant to point kallisteiros towards previous discussion, and not meant as dismissive 10:33 < maaku> I hope this channel is welcoming to all newcomers and their ideas. 10:36 < kallisteiros> it's all good :-) 10:40 -!- Zenton [~user@unaffiliated/vicenteh] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:42 < kanzure> kallisteiros: here are some references on extension blocks, 10:42 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/bitcoin-sidechains-unchained-epicenter-adam3us-gmaxwell/ 10:42 < kanzure> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=283746.0 10:42 < kanzure> http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-May/008356.html 10:42 < kanzure> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1296628.0 10:43 < kanzure> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1296628.msg13400092#msg13400092 10:43 < kanzure> http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/012173.html 10:43 < kanzure> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-January/013490.html 10:43 < kanzure> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-April/013981.html 10:43 < kanzure> https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/63b8lb/purse_extension_blocks_ready_for_liftoff/dft4nj1/?context=1 10:44 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ifroohpwdtqpjzmt] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 10:44 < kanzure> extension blocks were also mentioned in my 2015 review talk at scaling bitcoin montreal, http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/bitcoin/scalingbitcoin-review.pdf 10:52 -!- Kaizen_ [~kaizen_@38.98.37.138] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:54 -!- SopaXorzTaker [~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:57 -!- Kaizen_ [~kaizen_@38.98.37.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:59 < kallisteiros> thanks kanzure! 11:07 -!- str4d [~str4d@231.191.6.51.dyn.plus.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:08 -!- tombusby [~tombusby@gateway/tor-sasl/tombusby] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:09 -!- str4d_ [~str4d@254.196.6.51.dyn.plus.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:10 -!- str4d_ [~str4d@254.196.6.51.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:11 -!- str4d_ [~str4d@254.196.6.51.dyn.plus.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:12 -!- str4d_ [~str4d@254.196.6.51.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:12 -!- str4d [~str4d@231.191.6.51.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:13 -!- str4d [~str4d@254.196.6.51.dyn.plus.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:16 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wixrozfjpljkcvri] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:21 -!- str4d [~str4d@254.196.6.51.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:33 -!- tombusby [~tombusby@gateway/tor-sasl/tombusby] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:33 -!- str4d [~str4d@254.196.6.51.dyn.plus.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:54 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:6518:5acd:4792:2a87] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:56 < kanzure> kallisteiros: i think a formal write of extension blocks and evil forced forks (or whatever) would be welcomed. 11:57 -!- str4d [~str4d@254.196.6.51.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:14 -!- harrymm_ [~harrymm@69.161.195.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:15 -!- harrymm_ [~harrymm@69.161.195.103] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:26 -!- kallisteiros [scientist@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/kallisteiros] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:33 -!- Zenton [~user@unaffiliated/vicenteh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:51 < kanzure> "Non-interactive zero-knowledge proofs for composite statements" https://eprint.iacr.org/2018/557 12:51 < kanzure> "Updatable and universal common reference strings with applications to zkSNARKs" https://eprint.iacr.org/2018/280.pdf 12:51 < kanzure> "Verifiable delay functions" https://eprint.iacr.org/2018/601 13:03 -!- farmerwampum [~farmerwam@104.129.29.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:12 -!- tombusby [~tombusby@gateway/tor-sasl/tombusby] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:13 -!- enemabandit [~enemaband@16.77.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:14 -!- tombusby [~tombusby@gateway/tor-sasl/tombusby] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:18 -!- SopaXorzTaker [~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:20 -!- kallisteiros [scientist@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/kallisteiros] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:27 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:28 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:35 -!- enemabandit [~enemaband@16.77.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:38 -!- Krellan 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(www.adiirc.com)] 16:17 < maaku> TIL bitcoin actually targets 2017 blocks per 2 weeks 16:19 -!- opdenkamp [~opdenkamp@kodi/staff/dushmaniac] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:20 -!- d9b4bef9 [~d9b4bef9@web501.webfaction.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:21 -!- d9b4bef9 [~d9b4bef9@web501.webfaction.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:23 -!- uiuc-slack4 [~uiuc-slac@li175-104.members.linode.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:24 -!- uiuc-slack [~uiuc-slac@li175-104.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:24 -!- comboy [~quassel@tesuji.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:24 -!- opdenkamp [~opdenkamp@kodi/staff/dushmaniac] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:26 -!- comboy [~quassel@tesuji.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:29 -!- opdenkamp [~opdenkamp@kodi/staff/dushmaniac] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:43 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:44 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has 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connection] 20:48 -!- tin_ [~tyn@2601:645:4100:87b0:20ca:f2a3:a7e4:5b70] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:04 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wixrozfjpljkcvri] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 21:05 < maaku> I know about the use of 2015 blocks not 2016, of course, but somehow I'd just assumed without checking that the target interval was 2015*600 21:06 < maaku> It's more accurate to say that bitcoin targets 599.7 blocks. 21:20 -!- d9b4bef9 [~d9b4bef9@web501.webfaction.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:21 -!- d9b4bef9 [~d9b4bef9@web501.webfaction.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:23 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:23 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:49 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:03 -!- shesek [~shesek@bzq-84-110-232-211.red.bezeqint.net] has joined 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