--- Log opened Wed Aug 29 00:00:53 2018
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04:56 < kanzure> "How to time-stamp a digital document" (1990) https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00196791
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20:20 < rusty> Hmm, I wonder if some of the old ideas on 'transaction timeout' should be reconsidered in a taproot/graftroot world?  It would make claiming an HTLC more efficient, for example: we currently 'terminate' the HTLC output by spending it, but if it timed itself out we'd avoid that extra transaction.
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20:41 < Varunram> rusty: there might be potential for miners to misuse that? say someone sends 1btc and the miner doesn't allow the tx causing it to timeout
20:41 < Varunram> doesn't mine*
20:42 < rusty> Varunram: sure.  That's exactly the same scenario as now, but we use a separate tx to time it out.
20:44 < Varunram> hm, I think that makes sense
20:46 < rusty> The counter-argument is generally that it creates another mechanism by which txs can become invalid, meaning the mempool has to be re-evaluated every new block (worst case).  Usually you can just kick things out of the mempool if their input are spent.
20:55 < RubenSomsen> rusty: it probably complicates reorgs too
20:56 < rusty> RubenSomsen: yes, that's a subset of the same problem I think.
21:23 < sipa> rusty: how does taproot change this?
21:27 < rusty> sipa: Not fundamental.  One argument against transaction timeouts was the "vendors don't expect payments to vanish in a reorg if parties are honest".  If our thinking is moving to a "normal case + unusual cases" model which reflects smart contracts becoming a significant case, this would be consistent with that line of though, I think.
21:28 < rusty> ie. it's not insane to do things in bitcoin script which are really dumb in the normal payment case.
21:30 < rusty> My initial thinking was driven by the "swap lightning tx to onchain funds" case.  Right now, that's efficient if you trust the party (lightning tx in, payment onchain out).  If you want it trustless, the onchain payment out has to be conditional on some preimage + a timeout; the payer would spend it to complete the swap.
21:31 < rusty> For normal lightning, it's marginal: we aim to never put HTLC txs on the blockchain, so having it slightly more inefficient is not a big deal.
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21:48 < sipa> rusty: conceptually that makes sense... if transactions are regularly going to have presigned, unbroadcadt alternatives anyway, then the old mantra of "without an attack, every valid transaction can be included in the chain" does no longer hold
21:48 < sipa> rusty: but there are other concerns like how should wallets treat such time-encoumbered funds
21:49 < sipa> that in particular may be forcing some complexity on otherwise unaffected participants
21:50 < rusty> sipa: yes, I agree.  I'm...not sure what the answer is there.  I'm floating this now in the hope that someone remembers it if it becomes sane to optimize for in future.
21:52 < sipa> also, it's nontrivial to not make it cause constant reevaluations of the mempool
21:53 < sipa> in particular, making scripts observe time is a non-starter for that reason
21:53 < maaku> rusty: the other thing not mentioned here is that you'd have to make a tx using expiry visible, and make those tx's outputs subject to maturation
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21:53 < maaku> otherwise you introduce a rather significant fungibility risk
21:54 < sipa> but you can in theory have something where soke opcodes pushes an 'assertion on time' that must hold independent of script validity
21:55 < sipa> so your script still returns unamboguous and non-context dependent true or false, but also returns a max valid timestamp in a way
21:55 < sipa> which the mempool can reason about (e.g. depending on an unconfirmed tx with expiration time causes the dependency to inherit it)
21:58 < rusty> sipa: hmm, that works in a taproot/graftroot/MAST world I think; eg. OP_MUSTBEBEFOREHEIGHT must be the first opcode in script, next must be  a push (or some such hack).  That's pretty icky, of course.
21:59 < sipa> rusty: no reason why it needs to be the first opcode
22:01 < rusty> sipa: that's how I read "non-context dependent": not hiding within some branch?
22:04 < sipa> (not saying this is a good idea; but it would avoid having scripts observe the time)
22:06 < sipa> rusty: i just literally mean the script has no way to observe time
22:06 < rusty> Well, I'm basically using the first part of the script to extend the TxIn here to have (conceptually) more fields.  I'm not saying it's a good idea either!
22:06 < sipa> and there is an opcode "MAXHEIGHT" which always succeeds, but makes the script evaluation return not just True but (True, timeval)
22:07 < sipa> so the script is only ever evaluated once
22:07 < sipa> ad then the mempool just remembers its maxtime
22:07 < sipa> but the opcode can occur anywhere, or in ifs, or not at all
22:07 < sipa> and it only has an effect ehen executed
22:07 < sipa> afk!
22:09 < rusty> Hmm, it can't always succeed can it?  Well, I guess maybe the script eval "succeeds" but the tx fails.  And script eval must take the minimum of multiple MAXHEIGHT.  Yech...
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--- Log closed Thu Aug 30 00:00:54 2018