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09:12 < nsh> did anyone read htis and figure out what's being claimed? https://vitalik.ca/general/2018/08/07/99_fault_tolerant.html
09:13 < nsh> something like "if you have a bunch of people watching then you can get 99% BFT from magical synchrony assumptions" but it's a verbose post and not well written imho and i'm not sure i can pick out the fundamental insight if there is one
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14:55 < gmaxwell> unrelated to much of anything, I flipped through this a bit and think I would recommend it to people: https://intensecrypto.org/public/
14:57 < gmaxwell> it doesn't appear to suffer the "overly mechanistic" problem that I complain about in 99% of online cryptography tutorials.
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17:12 < grubles> how early were interactive atomic swaps described?
17:14 < gmaxwell> grubles: prior to nov 2011. e.g. the ZKCP page is just describing one, https://en.bitcoin.it/w/index.php?title=Zero_Knowledge_Contingent_Payment&oldid=20089  but I believe the construct without the extra steps was probably described even before then.
17:15 < grubles> ok excellent
17:16 < grubles> yes i'm looking for email list posts etc from around that time period
17:18 < gmaxwell> also https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91843.msg1011956#msg1011956  (and now I curse my past self for not being more rigorous in citing)
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17:20 < grubles> ah no worries. thanks!
17:22 < gmaxwell> Sep 2011, https://en.bitcoin.it/w/index.php?title=Contract&oldid=16111#Example_5:_Trading_across_chains  he later edited it to credit tier nolan, but I dunno where tier's post is because he wiki currently links a later 2013 explination.
17:23 < grubles> yeah just saw that
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17:24 < gmaxwell> most of the stuff mike posted on that page came from posts or emails with Satoshi.
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17:32 < grubles> @gmaxwell, do you know of any instances where an atomic swap order book was described during that time period (early 2010s)
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17:34 < gmaxwell> Almost certantly on IRC.  you might want to ask maaku, who might have a better memory for that sort of thing.
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17:37 < gmaxwell> From my perspective, it was well known and obvious that you could do these things from at least mid 2011 on...  the primary hurdles to doing them were (1) no one really wanted to, centeralized systems work fine; (2) building multiparty protocols is @#$@ complex; (3) prior to CLTV the only way to prevent holdup was to use refund transactions, which were insecure due to malleability.
17:38 < gmaxwell> Satoshi mentions secure swaps here, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1790.msg28917#msg28917 but doesn't describe them in detail.
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17:43 < grubles> oo ok that will surely be helpful
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17:52 < grubles> just to clarify, "mike" on the bitcoin wiki is hearn?
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